Dangerous dogs and the treatment of other dogs - how the Swiss do it...

[MmeLindt]

I just posted this on my blog and thought that some of you might find it interesting.

Owning a dog in Switzerland is not as straight forward as one might think. There are a list of regulations that vary from canton to canton.

As Swiss residents have to obey laws made not just on a cantonal level, but also federal laws, and those made after a referendum, the list of dos and don'ts is long and confusing. They vary from canton to canton so if one moves to a different area, it is important to check the laws in the new canton.

To make sure that dog owners know their responsibilities, all new dog owners are now required to pass a theory test, and a practical test will follow soon.

Last week I did the theory course, in typical Swiss fashion, with wine and nibbles served. The local vet organised the course, thankfully in English as we had to do a small test at the end of the 35 minute lecture.

Basically our responsibilities include getting the dog a medallion - a tax disc - and proving that we have civil liability insurance for our dog. The hound must be chipped and registered with a federal agency and be vaccinated against rabies. Some of the regulations are designed to protect the population, some are protection for the dogs themselves such as the banning of choke chains with spikes or that dogs should not be left alone all day.

Other laws protect the general population and range from keeping dogs on leads in public areas to picking up poo and not allowing your dog to disturb neighbours.

The rules here in Geneva are very strict for dogs termed as 'Dangerous Breeds'. These dogs, 15 different breeds such as Staffies, Rottweilers, Mastiffs and Pit Bulls, are very highly regulated. They must be sterilised and crossbreeds with these dogs are also illegal. Dogs that are already here are allowed to stay, but must be muzzled when out of doors. These dogs must be taken at least three times a month to training classes until they are 24 months old and yearly thereafter. The owners must do a yearly theory training, instead of the one time training that owners of other dogs are obliged to do.

Basically, the authorities have made it so difficult and expensive to keep a dog termed as 'dangerous' in the hope that they will eventually die off in the canton. The vet estimated that keeping a dog from the dangerous dogs list would cost the owner an additional CHF 3,000.00 a year. That is around £1500.

DS recently had a couple of women come into school and give a talk on safety with dogs.One of the women put a mask and 'paws' on and pretended to be a dog and the other woman demonstrated how to behave if a dog were to run towards one (curl up on the ground, face hidden in your arms and pretend to be a rock, girls to hold their hair) and how to treat dogs.

oops, that is long. Sorry.

Does it work MmeLindt, or are there a lot of prosecutions for breach of the regulations?

If it does, it's imho excellent, although I'd take issue with the views held by the Government on dangerous dogs, believing as I do that all dogs (like humans) have the potential to be dangerous and that law making and enforcement should be on a case by case basis and not specific. To that end I support the campaign of the Breed Not Deed organisation here in the UK.

I've had a lot of contact with some of the breeds considered dangerous in various other countries, such as the Staffie, Rottweiler and GSD (I own one of the latter, luckily in this country that's fine, in Ireland for example they are a restricted breed with specific legislation attached to ownership). Those I deal with are rescue dogs, mostly from pounds, some have been abused or thrown onto the streets. I've found that these breeds are 99.9% of the time super and with love and responsible treatment make wonderful pets and it saddens me to think that they should be discriminated against because of their breed.

With regard to that, what does Switzerland do if a dog is discovered to be on the banned list?

And what do they do with a dog if he is identified by the authorities as being owned by someone who hasn't fulfilled the legal requirements?

I'm sorry, but I am against any laws that deem a dog dangerous, by breed alone. Staffies are wonderfull, loving animals. The problem with them is at t'other end of the lead.

The rest of the rules sound great though. I wouldn't be against having to attend training and my dog is already insured.

Interesting.

I understand the regulations regarding kennel design are quite stringent too.

Non-approved kennel

Jeez I hope they're not bedlam! Both are lovely, gentle breeds, the biggest risk from either surely is being sat upon by one!

The dogs considered dangerous in Geneva are listed here:

here

It's not Staffies (i.e. Staffordshire Bull Terriers) but American Staffordshire Terriers which are on the list (if you click through for omre info it's there in French).

Do, however, agree re Breed Not Deed but - let's face it - the Swiss were never going to take the most tolerant approach, were they?

@ Bella's kennel.

Would be interesting to see any stats on dog attacks in Switzerland. Presumably they would be much lower?

Ignore my last list - that was wrong.

des chiens potentiellement dangereux A3.pdf Dangerous Swiss Dogs

-still no Staffies, and most are banned here too with a couple of notable exceptions...

Night, ladies.

Number of dog bites

Somebody else do a per capita calculation please, and one for UK - I really have to go to bed now

Had to do it - I lurve my numbers:

UK : 4540 bites, population 61.4m = 7 bites per 100,000 population.

Switzerland: 2500 bites, population 7m = 35 bites per 100,000 population.

Night all

That last linked list might include staffies as it says 'all types of pitbull'
Many countries categorize staffies under 'pitbull type'

Bella
The discrepancy between the dog bites per person is almost certainly to due to the regulation that dog bites have to be reported, both dog on dog and dog on human.

lol at kennel.

Valhalla
I am not a fan of banning specific breeds either. IMO even a poodle or a Maltese can be dangerous if trained that way. Their list is pretty random anyway. My neighbours have a beauceron and while he is a lovely dog, I never leave him alone with the DC. Why is he not on the list but rottweiler is, they seem to be pretty similar.

Does it work? Well, it is difficult to say. Switzerland is a highly regimented country, due to the fact that the population can make their own laws. The strict dog regulations in Geneva are the work of a politician who just does not like dogs and cannot understand why someone would want to keep a dog as a pet.

Problem is that there are so many laws that they cannot all be enforced. So while it is illegal to bring a dog from the list into Geneva canton, there are no controls on the borders.

I guess it makes the potential rottweiller owner think twice about that breed.

If a thug wants a dangerous dog to impress and intimidate, he is just going to train another dog that is not on the list to more aggressive behaviour.

Bedlam
I think that they were told when a dog is attacking to go into that position, but I will check that he understood that so that he is not turning into a stone every time a dog goes past

The Swiss (in their perfection - all credit to them) are quite strange. They are obsessed with insurance - you are legally obliged to insure everything against everything. Our broker tried to force us to get a car insurance extension against marmots (or suchlike rodent) gnawing some engine part. Do you have this, Mme Lindt ?

One of our neighbours, also not Swiss, didn't know the rule about cutting your hedges to 2m before 15 July, and another neighbour, instead of calling round to tell him, reported him to the police! Quite strange, don't you think?!

But, they have free doggy-do bag stands everywhere, and no poo anywhere at all. Which is just lovely. And it's beautiful and everything works and your pooch and children are welcomed in all restaurants everywhere. So I basically loved it there. So, Mme Lindt,

I'm sure that there is more reporting of dog bites in Switzerland, but even the figures for people requiring medical attention for dog bites are quite startling:

Switzerland: 13000 (194 per 100,000) here

UK: 4000 (6 per 100,000)

You could argue that there should be more hospitalisations here because we don't have to pay for our health service!

All the reading I've done says the Swiss legislation was a knee jerk reaction to a toddler being mauled to death by 3 pit bulls in Zurich canton in 2005. Much like our own knee-jerk legislation, it's just the Swiss got there a bit later (like votes for women!).

It's all so useless (in UK and Switzerland) - anyone with an inch of savvy can create a crossbreed which cannot be properly identified without a DNA test. There simply is not the level of policing (in UK certainly) to make sure that genuinely dangerous dogs are taken off the streets. All the legislation is just lip service - looks fab on paper, does sweet FA in practice.

(Golly, Valhalla - I'm starting to sound like you! )

(The Swiss data is for animal bites & scratches but even so - that's a lot of rabid hamsters!!!!!)

Hamsters are evil Bella. So if it includes hamster bites no wonder it is that high

Not true, Shiny! Hammies are lovely - had them most of my life and never been bitten.

I have, however, been bitten quite badly by a JRT!

Yes, Bella, you are correct. The legislation was brought in following the death of a child in Zurich. While I don't doubt the good intentions, I think that they have gone about it wrongly.

I found this report which shows a much lower incident of dog bites. The graph at the bottom shows around 2600 recorded dog bites man incidents in 2007 and 2008.

The figure of 13000 is one that has been estimated as the real amount of dog bites, if as is suggested less bites are reported than actually happened. (from a doctoral thesis)

Yup, that's similar to the figures I used in my first calculation - the one that gives 7 per 100,000 bites for UK and 35 per 100,000 for Switzerland. So there would have to be 5 times 'over' reporting of bites in Switzerland for there even to be parity.

I don't think any of this type of blanket legislation is effective - I like the ownership exam (hope they taught you about chocolate, raisins and onions, and a bit of CPR!) and the compulsory microchipping but the rest of it is pants, really.

And don't even get me started on Swiss vivisection laws!

No, they said nothing about raisins, chocs or onions. Never heard of the onion thing.

No first aid training. Tbh, it was more about protecting the general public than the dogs. The legislation was brought in by a dog hater.

and I can well believe that 7x more Swiss would report a dog bite than the Brits. Easily. Even without legislation.

They report folk for washing their car on the wrong day.

They would also go to A&E much more quickly. It's so nice and clean, and if you go there with the children they get a free teddy. No waiting and it's reimbursed by your (compulsory, obviously) medical insurance.

at not telling you about onions etc.

They need Bella on board but I'd miss the sea too much....

Clematis! Did they tell you about clematis? Bet they didn't!