Bella, have taken your advice - registered with a new vet...

[luckyblackcat]

Have been putting off my girls spay as I do not 100% trust my vets practice (and things have been a little fraught round here since DS' bump on the head).

Called a nearby one (8 miles away) which have heard v good reports from friends about, spoke to receptionist, within 30 mins a vet had called me and was chatting to me about the pro's and cons of waiting for a season etc.

Am booked in for a pre op/new patient healthcheck on Thurs with a view to spay maybe next Monday - the lovely woman vet I talked to only works pt but I really liked her.

Only bad news is that they start a neuter sale in Feb (20% off) but really I need it done asap as I'm sure it'll be too late by Feb.

They actually reccomend a season, but we discussed options and for me I think tis ok. Currently DS only doing 3 ams per week and being rather hard work, there being lots of loose dogs - rotties an GSDs - round here and her needing to get out each day of she goes mental plus, DH is away for the rest of jan and much of feb/march too so I just do not need anything else to worry about!

Do I get a gold star?

PS Gundog trainer, when I told him of rabbit chasing recall, said, "Well given her seperation anxiety I expect she just suddenly realised she was too far away and decided to come back." I almost physically sagged I tell you!

Oh good - am glad you've found someone you like. Way too important a relationship to have with anyone you can't fully trust or respect, IMO.

at gundog man. Am sure he was winding you up, lest you become complacent! I'd probably take the separation anxiety over the free-range dog anyday

Have to say I was very proud of mine yesterday - they met a choc lab who just would not leave them alone, but my 3 all recalled instantly, including the filly A brief glimmer of hope to sustain us through these trying times

Out of interest, what did the vet say were the pros and cons of spaying prior to a season?

re separation anxiety and chasing. A dog with separation anxiety is more liKely to chase. Chasing releases endorphins and makes an anxious dog feel fab ( like a glass of wine for us!)so I think you should feel even more chuffed personally

Thank you minimu, I will stand erect once more!

Bella, very well done to your pack then, what stars.

Sadly mine would've been the one pestering...although at class on Sun she did a recall (off lead not long line) on a narrow track (hedges either side so enclosed) past the 3 other dogs in the class, including the other mad Slovak that she shared a crate with for a week at the gundog trainers so they seriously lurve each other. I know this is a tiny thing, but given her asbo overfriendliness I thought good.

Midori, some vets - not all - like to have a season due to the small possibility of urinary incontinence later in life. Once season passed, for every futher season you up the risk of some cancers inc mammary. Also risk of pyometria [sp] Bella is probably better at explaining this than me.

My Vet (ohh, look at me) and I were discussing it in context of my rather stressful life atm, my bonkers dog who could not cope with being confined to on the lead in the garden for 3 weeks.

Thankyou. I am aware of the benefits and drawbacks of spaying prior to and after a season, I just don't feel that most vets are forthcoming enough with the 'cons' personally...

I am not a vet, but I have spent a LOT of time looking into the effects of early spay/neuter and discussing it with several vets. I do wish vets would fully inform people so that they can make a proper decision. Sadly, it seems they rarely do. The same applies to vaccination.

We did have a discussion about the medication or repair that can be done if, later in life, the daft dog might have a problem.

Is there anything else she should have mentioned - apart from the fact it is surgery with all the risks of ga, she will need to spend a week not being let off the lead even in the garden, she will need to be prevented from licking her wound (all of which she did).

I think the biggest issue for me is trying to keep her calm and not leaping around as she is rather lively.

Also I had seriously thought about showing her(I used to show Afghan hounds quite successfully), but I cannot forsee any time in my life when this may be possible. in the old days unless there was a medical reason you couldn't show a neutered dog - not sure re bitches as never had one.

Afaik, the jury's very much out on the urinary incontinence - I don't know of any research which has shown a link one way or the other.

It's all swings and roundabouts with bitches - you have to try (somehow!) to balance the pyo vs incontinence vs tumours vs risks of getting pg too early vs ostoesarcoma vs risk of GA - etc., etc. An absolute minefield, and very few of the risks /benefits are easily quantifiable. It all ends up being quite circular, and there has to be something like LBC's circumstances to tip the balance either way.

And fab re the endorphins, minimu: LBC can politely suggest gundog trainer pops that one in his pipe and smokes it

Do you know, he does actually smoke a pipe.

Thank you Bella, btw, yes much of it was to do with current circs - did make me feel a little drama queen and selfish though.

Selfish? For not wanting her to get pregnant at 8 months old?

I knew he'd smoke a pipe

re bronze and silver at 8 months for the pups - but my kids can't read or add up and rarely have clean clothes and only occasionally get fed!

I definately know that gundog trainer!

dc need to be fed? Really?

oh bugger...

lol @ not feeding the DC...

I know Bella, but I'm not thinking about her (although I really do not want her to get preg anytime ever, you know me and my irresponsible breeders issues ) I am thinking about how much more tricky my life would be if she has a season and I cannot walk her or take her to training for 3 weeks.

She would explode with frustration.

Would your gundog man board her for 3 weeks?

It's blinking hard, I know, but there's only so much you can do really

Like I said, afaik, there's no conclusive evidence that spaying before a season does increase the incidence of urinary incontinence. Even if there was, you'd have to balance that against the reduced risk of mammary tumours if you do spay before a season - so circular!

In any case, it's like all increased risks: something may increase your risk three fold, but if your risk was only 0.000000001% in the first place, that's not really quite so bad!

thanks bella

He has many entire dogs there, I think she would absolutely come back up the duff! Did discuss this with vet, I'm not keen - we'ce only had her back a few weeks!

I think I'm too late, she's looking a bit diff around the bits iyswim, 3 weeks in it is.

Have just had such a good afternoon heelwork session too

Are there many loose dogs in your area?

You can buy a spray, I forget what it is called, but it masks the smell of the season. (idiots who insist on showing their bitches whilst in season use it ) If you used that combined with the season pamnts you can get and walking at odd hours when no-one else was really about, then walking her during her season wouldn't be enitrely out of the question.

And yes, you can show if your bitch is spayed, provided you get permission from the KC. Realistically though, especially in a very prolific breed like Labs, you are unlikely to do well with a spayed bitch as bias is usualy shown. (plus they won't recognise your face at the end of the lead... )

Ah well, midori - LBC has a very rare breed. Very rare

Interesting about taking bitches out in season. There is a thread on agilitynet about it and the general feeling is that people still walk their dogs although most are in rural locations and obviously go on quiet walks and do not let the dog off the lead.

I have only ever let my bitches in season run in a private field that is secure and that I can see them at all times - the worry of a litter would be too much for me!

I've always had the op after their first season and it is never as bad as it seems (or is that just me wiping the worst bits out of my memory!)

The op itself isn't that bad - it's keeping a young bitch quiet afterwards and stopping her bounding around too much that's the problem usually.

I don't see a problem with popping dog in car and going to suitably quiet location, but I do know LBC has quite a lot on her plate anyway, the trooper that she is

Still, sounds like decision has been taken out of your hands, LBC, if she seems to be coming into season anyway.

I have to say, Mimimu, I have never heard of any sensible owner having their bitch 'caught' accidentally whilst in season, although obviously that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Obviously taking them to the local park where there are lods of off lead dogs is stupid, but walking them away from other dogs is pretty low risk.

We are lucky in that we have a 'private' beach here that we can use and can only be used by others on the army camp, so my girls get pretty much their usual walks when in season.

I find that my girls keep themselves clean when in season and the only mess they make is a drop or two of blood on the kitchen floor in the mornings.

It does happen, though, midori. Often not thorugh the fault of the bitch's owner, but because of entire males left to wander.

Your location sounds idyllic but hardly typical, tbh.

I haven't spent my life living here... I did used to live in the 'real world'... LOL

We do have a LOT of enitre male dogs and bitches over here (Northern Ireland) the problem is of epidemic proportions. When we first moved here we kept a stopping the car to 'collect up' loose dogs when we were out, only to find that they trotted back downt he road into an open gate somehwere... It really is quite shocking, despite the existence of dog licences here. I can't remember ever seeing stray dogs wandering when I lived in England, although that's not to say it doesn't happen, and I know it is more prevalent in some areas, but this is something to consider when walking an in season bitch.

My point was, it is possible to walk in season bitches safely, whatever your location, it just requires a bit of common sense.

LOL, I think you know that wasn't what I was suggesting, In fact, quite the opposite, otherwise I would have just said something like 'you're clearly an idiot so just get her spayed ASAP'...

When to spay, or even to spay at all, is a choice for each dog owner to make individually. I got the impression from LBC's posts that maybe she felt it was better to wait but due to personal circumstances felt it would be too much for her. Hardly an animal welfare issue, so entirely down to LBC. Dealing with an in season bitch really isn't that bad, and seeing as it appears LBC's bitch may already be coming into season, in which case she will have to wait to get her spayed, I feel it is quite helpful to point that out so the whole situation doesn't seem too daunting.

I actually find it quite refreshing that someone has given so much consideration to what do, not everyone gives it so muich thought.

I'd hold on to the hard hat for now, tbh.

Perhaps most owners don't give it as much consideration as LBC or my own neurotic self, but each owner prioritises their dog in a different way. Having seen it from the vet side of things, it can be very difficult to give a clear concise assessment of the pros and cons in laymans terms and (as with all advice) many owners choose to completely ignore it anyway That's why I urged LBC to change her vet - no point paying money and potentially putting your dog's health in the hands of someone you're not happy with.
And I have seen some very sensible owners trooping in for misalliance injections - for the dog anyway [grin
tbh I'm surprised you're in favour of spaying at all, Midori - most breeders are against it, as well as vaccination and are too busy piling calcium supplements on to pup's food ]