Bella, Minimu, Midori another puppy training qun...

[Romanarama]

How do I get my nightmare wild very frisky and athletic puppy to stay out of the kitchen while we eat rather than jumping on the table? Is it possible, or do I need a gate?

A gate or crate would be the easiest and quickest way, but maybe not the best long term.

I would try giving him a stuffed kong or a nice bone to occupy him while you're eating, (and only let him have this at times you are eating so it remains 'special' to him) combined with absolutely ensuring that whatever effort he made to get food from the table, he was given as little attention as possible whilst ensuring he cannot actually get any food. If it is possibkle to stop him getting on the table/food without pushing him or giving eye contact, then do so and literally just ignore him. If you can't stop him by just ignoring him, gently push him down, take him back over to his king/bone and say 'good boy' when he is there. Again, if he comes back to he table, quietly remove him back to the king/bone, praising him when he is doing the right thing.

It's really important he is not able to get food from the table during this process, or ti will make things take much longer and be much harder. He will eventually realise (and it'll take a while and might get worse before it gets better) that trying to get food from the table is a fruitless task and it is much more fun and rewarding to just lay down and chew his kong/bone.

I would have him on a lead and "practise" having a meal. Don't try and eat at the same time as it will be impossible. He has to be in the down position and click and treat. The second he gets up hold the lead and ask him to go dwon. The second he does click and treat. Do this for a few seconds.

I would remove him from the room when you are eating until he has learnt that he has to be in the down position. (personally I prefer dogs to be in their beds when we are eating so maybe you could have some of the family (pretending to eat) and you clicking the dog in his bed. Gradually build up the time between the treats as the aim is he gets rewarded for staying in his bed or in the down position.

The other way I would deal with it would be with the crate. Crate the dog with a toy which I guess he will get fed up with during the meal the second he is still and in the down position click and treat. Work at this for ages and then gradually you will be able to it with the crate door open.

I think he has to learn the correct behaviour in the situation when you are eating so although this may take a while it is a lesson that does need to be learnt. Then in the summer he can come out with you to meals in pub gardens, picnics etc. If you do not get this sorted it will be a nightmare when he is bigger. So do not give into him it is for his benefit in the long run!

The trouble with asking three dog behaviourists is that you will get three different answers! Pick the one that suits you!!!

Right Bella want to hear your answer now

Thanks very much for these detailed responses. I think I'm going to try the bone option. I do say 'off' and click and treat when his feet hit the floor if it's just me, but it's really easy for him just to steal food straight off the children's plates, so we're back to square one. At the moment I'm tying him up, but he whines and barks so mealtimes are hopeless. Similarly if I shut him out or put him in his crate.

The only problem with the bone in my opinion is that you are not actually telling him what you expect of him but just sidetracking him from the unwanted behaviour. Sometimes a good idea but in this instance what happens when you are unable to sidetrack him eg have no bone he then will continue to jump up.

If you are tying him up he must be quiet for a second this is when to reward him. He is getting a clear message of the wanted and rewarded behaviour.

If you tie him up when you are not eating what does he do?

Minimu gets the star prize for the most correct and extensive answer as always!

What I do is feed my dogs first - just before I dish up for my em, ur - oh yes, my dh and dc! Pup is still eating in her crate - for the first few days she cried and whined but now just eats and goes to sleep. My older dogs are graduates of this method and have learned they haven't a cat in hell's chance of getting any titbits or attention from us, so just eat then flop out and sleep.

HTH

"Sometimes a good idea but in this instance what happens when you are unable to sidetrack him eg have no bone he then will continue to jump up."

IMO, as well as being 'rewarded' with the bone for staying away from the table, the pup is also learning that jumping up at the table is not rewarding, eg. he gets no food if he does it, so eventually he won't bother whether he has a bone or not.

I like clicker training, and use it myself, but IME it is quite hard for a people to get the hang of unless they are going to classes where someone can help them. Unless the clicker is 'charged' well, it is pointless to use one. I suspect this is why so many people who give clicker training a try, usually from books without attending a class, think it is pointless and doesn't work.

For me, the only 'correct' thing for my dogs to do when I am eating is to ignore what I am doing and not beg or ask for food. I don't care if they are wandering around the room or sitting or laying by my feet, as long as they aren't begging or stealing.

I didn't realise Minimu and Midori's advice was contradictory - tbh I skimmed both - and did not mean to be in any way inflammatory by saying Minimu was the most correct.

I am always amazed at the incredibly detailed advice Minimu gives, and her offers of alternative solutions, to people who often don't even thank her.

In fairness to Minimu she does always explain about charging or conditioning clickers but doesn't use technical jargon.

And she can take a joke

..and I also believe Romanorama has already impressed Minimu with her clicker prowess...

Ignore me, I am being a grumpy bint due to other thinngs and that post didn't really come acros as I had intended....

Tis alright, we are all grumpy bints from time to time.

Just didn't want to accidentally start a row. Will read more thoroughly in future

My clicker is fully loaded! He's very alert to the 'click'. Though it's a bit massive and I need a new one so I can always have it in my pocket.

I tried the kong this evening, not having a bone to hand, and he actually focused on it for the first time ever and gave us about 15mins peace, but then came and jumped up. I think the problem is that it's always rewarding to hang around a table with 3 ill-mannered little boys eating at it. I think the tying up and treating for silence that minimu suggests might be better as that way he can just forget any table rewards. I've never tied him up in other circumstances but I'll try and see. Usually when he's being really annoying I put him in the crate, but I liked the idea of him learning to be in the same room when we eat without being annoying. I hadn't thought of feeding in the crate - I'd always read that you shouldn't put food and drink in the crate.

As minimu says, i want to be able to take him to a cafe, which right now would be very .

Btw, a sharp 'off' from me and he always gets off the table/out of the dishwasher/stops shagging my leg/stops shredding my clothes and sits down politely with his ears all flat, but it lasts about 2 secs before he's back up again. I've been drumming the 'off' into him with the clicker, but 'stay' is a different ball game.

Midori I didn't mean to cause offence just playing devils advocate with different methods. I am a bore on this site regarding clicker training. I was aware that Romanorama is a clicker graduate.

Sorry standing joke amongst colleagues about asking a dog behaviourist for advice and getting different suggestions. Sorry to make you feel grumpier not my intention.

Actually Bellas method seems easiest to me. I will add that to my book of ideas I can charge to clients!!!!

Midori - Minimu has taught her dogs to type using a clicker

Still waiting to hear how they do the shift key, though

Bella Back leg on shift key right front paws on keys simple. Wait for the dog obviously to touch the shift with back left leg and click treat. no probs

gks gdhbk gbkK@ck @KDpkv'gp

How was that?

Minimu lab replies -
These owners really need to get out more.

Minimu lab replies -
These owners really need to get out more.

Minimu, sorry, you didn't cause offence at all, everyone does things differently and has different requirements for their dogs. If anyone caused offence, I suspect it was me being a twit!

Romanarama, I am sure you probably know if you're alreayd using a clicke,r but if you find it combersome you can use a wor dinstead. I just use the word 'good' as I 'clicker' train my dogs to stan dfor the showring and it is hard to place them whne they are learning and hold a clicker at the same time. I know some people feel it is easier to get timing right with the clicker itself, but I personally found the word easier.

Minimu - lab boy's spelling may be poor but at least he only posts once!

Anyway, he is from show stock

Uhmm back to more training I think on the post button