Going to see puppies. What to ask?

[Mumsaysno]

We have arranged to go and view two seperate litters of Bichon Frise puppies at the weekend. Have never owned a dog/puppy before and would appreciate some advice from more experienced people.

The first litter we are going to see (we got the details from the Kennel Club website) the owner said it is her pet dog and the only litter she is having and has been mated with another family members dog. But both dogs KC registered.

The other dog owners have 10 dogs (also show them at Crufts as well as breed from them) and seem to have numerous litters of puppies available (parents and grandparents available to see) and seem more experienced but am feeling uneasy that so many litters are available, but this may be normal for a breeder that owns a big number of dogs.

What questions should we ask? What papers do we need to see? Any help/advice greatly appreciated thanks.

Honestly?! I'd be put off both breeders, but I am especially fussy...

The first because they appear to have used the most 'convenient' dog for their bitch rather than one which suited her most and as they sound inexperienced themselves and you are first time owners, they are unlikely to be able to offer you advice on the puppy after you have bought it. I woudl also want to look closely at the pedigrees as if the Mum and dad belong tot he same family, it is possible they came from the same place and so may be related. Not desirable for a novice breeder.

I would be put of the second due to the number of litters. Have they said why they are breeding so many litters? If it is for same reason like they took the bitches abroad to a stud dog, or have imported a dog 'on loan' for a short period, fine. if it is because 'all the bitches came in season together' (they always do come into season together if you own many) or somethign simlar, that's not really a great reason, IMO. If they have two litters, that's not so bad, but ask if they are keeping a puppy themselves.

Other than that, you need to see the parents KC paperwork (even if they don't own the stud dog they should have a copy of this) and check that it is not endorsed 'progeny not eligble for registration' and health test results if they have been done. I think eye testing is done for Bichons but it seems lots of breeders still don't do this, but ask anyway.

Obviously you need to see puppy with Mum and if you are looking for a family pet it's really a must that Mum and pups are kept indoors and preferably in a highish traffic area of the house. Pups should be clean and not smell bad and Mum should be interested but happy for you to look at and hold puppies. The pups should have plenty of toys and stimulation and be bold, interested and outgoing, a bit boisterous. Ask how old Mum is and Dad and check on their papers. The Kc recomend 1 year miminum fo a bitch, but most breeders feel this is too young, and even for a toy breed wait until 18-24 months old.

Ask what food pups have been weaned on, it should be a 'premium' brand or fresh meat. Ask if puppies have been wormed and what with and how often and if Mum was wormed during her pregnancy and since then also. (this is really improtant, worm damage when young can cause lasting serious damage) Will the pup have seen avet before you take it home? What happens if you take it to your vet after purchase only to find a serious problem? How old will the puppy be when you take it home?

Ask if puppies papers will be endorsed (most good breeders will do this) and if you will have to sign a contract when buying your puppy. (again, most good breeders do this) Ask what you will get in your puppy pack, and if you will get some food to take home with your puppy. Will the breeder be available after you take your puppy home for telephone or other advice if you need it and what will happen in the future if you can no longer keep the puppy, will they take it/buy it back?

Sorry this is so long, and I appreciate I am very fussy, but this dog will be your pet for the next 15 years. Out of the two you have mentioned, without any extra info, I would go for the breeder who shows. You have a much better chance on face value of getting a better dog and better 'after sales' care due to their experience in the breed.

Hi midori thanks for replying. Does it make a difference that the second litter we are going to see (the one that shows the dogs) are not listed on the Kennel Club website? They have their own website and say that they are professional groomers and show their dogs. The dogs come with a very comprehensive puppy pack and are microchipped etc and come with food, lead, collar, puppy carrier and blanket and lifelong after sales care.

The reason we were going to see the other puppies as well was just because we found the details on the kennel club website but dont really know if that makes a difference if they are as unexperienced as us.

Am also wary of the second breeder as they advertise their puppies on "PreLoved" and "Epupz" and am not sure if a reputable breeder would advertise their puppies there and not on Kennel Club website.

Am so confused and really don't want to make a mistake, want a nice healthy puppy as a pet that will make a lovely addition to our family.

Jeremy Vine had a discussion on puppies and avoiding a puppy farm dog which might be hepful to you.

I do know of breeders (very reptuable ones) that specifically chose to advertise litter os prelove dor Epupz so that they can hopefully stand out from the puppy farmers and BYb's and people can find a goo dbreeder. Sadly, the first places many people look are these sites. So I wouldn't rule her out for that reason, you are right to be cautious though.

As long as the pups are KC registered it doesn't matter about advertising on the site. I never have as by the time I register the puppies (usually 3-4 weeks old so I know all is well with them) they have homes lined up anyway, so its' not worth it for me.

Can you speak to someone who has bought a puppy from them in the past? I would always try and arrange this if someone asked me. Do you know their KC affix? (kennel name) You can look up parents and health test results onthe KC site and go to Fossedata for show results and check them. Have you asked the breed club for info on them? They will usually gladly tell you which breeders not to touch with a bargepole!

Are you in the North West?

No not in North West we are in the Midlands. Are a bit wary of the breeder with the website as they were wary to give a full name over the phone and no names on website and only gave a mobile number and mentioned they were in rented accomodation. Whereas the lady that I got details from the Kennel Club website gave me her home number, address and mobile and said that even though this was her first litter with her own pet Bichon they have breed because they wanted another puppy and her son wants one to. So they are keeping some of the puppies for themselves.

There is a breeder who sounds very much like the one you mention in the Northwest, a puppy farmer but seems very plausable on the face of it, I wonder if they are setting up under a number of different names and locations? (it is the same puppy pack, only mobile number, no names given out, dog groomer etc) Do these people say they don't KC register as the puppies are for pets only, unless you specifically pay extra for KC registraton?

I think now furthe rinformation has come to light ont he second breeder,t he first time breeder does sound lie a better option, although I think you'd probably still bebest to wait for an ideal breeder that can give you aftersales support and you are more likely to get a 'better' dog in the end. However, I know what it's like having to wait for a puppy... so I don't blame you.

The second breeder said that they have moved from Blackpool said the puppies would be microchipped and tattoed but no mention of KC registration. Puppy pack will contain a four generation pedigree certificate and pet food, pet carrier, lead, water, blanket, help sheet on bichons and grooming etc.

Feel more inclined to go and visit the first breeder in her home and see the puppies and go from there.

Never knew buying a puppy was so complicated. Thanks for all the advice and for being interested enough to reply to my posts it is very much appreciated.

Yes then, it is the same breeder, don't touch them with a bargepole, I have jheard very dodgythings about them and fromt he website they seem very dodgy. Are these the same people who asked for a deposit up front?

Yes, do visit the first breeder, ask all the questions about health testing, how the puppies are reared, check pedigree etc and go from there.

It is complicated and puppy farmers are very clever/decietful!

Sorry, my typing is really bad!

No not the same as the one who asked for a deposit up front but when I rang the second breeders the man spoke to me for over an hour and I hardly got a word in (he sounded very much like a second hand car salesman) and kept referring to his dogs as his babies and he doesnt let his babies go to just anyone. Was quite convinced until he texted me with his address and mentioned the price of the puppies again and then a link to his website. Found it strange that no names were on his website, he never told me his name and when my husband rang him back he only gave a first name.

Midori, do you know what name they were going under in Blackpool? Dont want to put the name on here but they do make a claim about their "bichons being the best" (not very criptic but you should be able to work out the name of the website).

Yes, it's the same one. The litter they have at the moment is not KC registered, which is why they haven't been able to advertise on the site, and the parents do not appear to be registered either.

I can absolutely see why the average person would be attracted by their website, it's pretty convincing, but to the 'trained eye' it looks very dodgy. (plus obviously I have heard things) Well done for flagging up the number of litters they have and it ringing alarm bells.

Hav eyou trie dringing the breed club for numbers of breeders with litters near you? ou can't advertise ont he KC site untily uo register, so there maybe breeders with litters already near you, or with bitches in whelp that would happily meet you now. It would helpt o have more than one breeder to visit and compare maybe?

Obviously trusting your instincts is very important in these things. Think he thought because I said we had never owned a dog/puppy before that we were stupid.

Yes I have looked on the Kennel Club website and that is where I got the details of the first breeder we are going to see tomorrow. She has five pups available and mum is her pet and she has breed from it to keep a pup for herself. Have spoken to my cousin who IS a dog groomer and has dogs of her own and DOES show them at Crufts and she has told us what questions to ask, what to look for in mum and puppies and we are now feeling a lot more confident and prepared. We will definitely not be going to visit the second breeder (sorry PUPPY FARMER), no wonder he advised us not to bring our children with us.

Thank you very much for all the help and advice, what would we do without Mumsnet.

Ask what health checks/screening the parents have had.

I'd be wary about having a first litter.

A friend of mine just bred puppies for the first time, KC registered, unrelated dogs, genuine person who has started breeding.

Turned out both her dogs are carriers but not sufferers for some genetic condition and 2 of the puppies since been sold have developed blindness. They weren't blind at birth so there is no way a buyer (or my friend) would have known.

Goth, but surely all breeders have to start somewhere and all dogs have to have a first litter at some point.

Yes and I'm sure most litters will be fine but I'd rather let someone else take the risk of finding out. I wouldn't want a dog that was blind or had some other serious condition.

i think Goth is merely pointing out the importance of health tests. Everyone does have to start somewhere, but people often don't health test as they think their dogs are healthy, but aren't aware of recessive conditions. One of the reasons to avoid in/line breeding from novice breeders, they will not be aware of conditions or problems with specific lines, that is only something that comes with years in the breed.

Have you checked the breed club, as opposed to the Kennel Club? This is the best way to find an ethical and reputable breeder, KC is merely a registration body that means the pedigree is verified (provided the breeder is honest!) and not a mark of quality or any sort of standard sadly. Puppy farmers Do KC register.

Contact for the Midland branch of the Bichon Frise club is Mrs. J Sims, 07931 235699

Will make sure to check health screening papers from both mum and dad. Will also be getting any pup we get checked over by a vet. We are only going to view the puppies have not made any commitment yet and will not be rushing into anything. Thanks for the warning though.

Thanks Midori will check out the website. Will ask breeder about health of parents and if they are related.

when we looked for a pup 18 months or so ago there was a good guide on the KC website re what to ask, what to look out for, how to spot a puppy-farmer etc.

each breed has different standard requirements re checks on potential inherited problems (eg hip and elbow scores, an eye test for something - can;t remember what off hand - from the parents) - you need to get breed specific info for these - again, probably possible to find on the KC website somewhere. remember though that many of these health checks/scores do not guarantee that your pup won;t have these inherited problems - they just give you an idea of the risk - hopefully reduced if they're responsibly bred.

mumsayno do you know anyone who owns a dog? we took our neighbour along to chose ours as she's always had one. she knew what questions to ask