Training without using treats....HELP!!

[OverflowingFestiveMum]

I have a dilema with our 9 1/2 month old puppy, Bella. We rehomed her when she was 6 months old. She is a mixed breed possibly part collie/lab/staffie/various other LOL
When we got her she was fed on supermarket own brand tinned food. We wanted to changeher to a good quality dry complete, but had lots of trouble getting her to eat it. Anyway...long story short(she did loose weight, and would refuse dry food for days )....we now have her settled on Nature diet wet food, with a bit of dry complete added (ammounts adjusted accordingly so she's not over fed)
And she eats it well...usually...BUT if she has more than 1 or 2 treats, or manages to get any scraps off dining room floor when dc are eating,then she stops eating her food again and holds out for more scraps or treats
So...we are careful about not giving her too many treats...keep her out of the dining room at DC meal times...and she eats her 2 meals a day and all is well.

However that creates another problem when we come to training.On Sunday we went our first training class, which was great. She did really well,andhad a lot of treats...
And then she didnt eat her tea Sun night, or her breakfast this morning...
So today I made sure no treats etc...and she wolfed her tea down again tonight...

BUT how do I work on training her without treats?????This is the problem I have been having with any training we have been doing!
We are working on getting a firm "sit" (she is fairly good),her recall, and walking without tugging on lead (her biggest problem)
She does respond to praise,and fussing, andI do always do this for desired behaviour....but will that work on it's own?

How else can I continue working on training her without using treats so much???

Help!

(BTW it doesnt seem to matter what treats she has...and it isnt really that she is full from the treats, just she is such a picky eater anything can throw her off her food...)

I should think a clicker is the way to go, but of course you have to use something rewarding at first to condition the clicker.

Does she like toys?

Do use treats. Use all her meal food for her treats. It doesn't matter how she gets her nutrients if she has to work for them all the better.

You can cut nature diet into small chunks and cook on a really low oven until they become like dry biscuits to use when out aned about.

As Bella says you can reward with toys try and get her to latch onto a particular toy a tuggy, ball or squeaky toy.

Just wondering why you are adding dry food to nature diet. Nature diet is a complete food on its own and does not need anything added to it.

Measure her food allowance each day and use it for treats anything left over feed at a meal. Obviously with a pup you will have to do the training at regular intervals during the day.

I don't feed my dogs if they have had a heavy training day with treats.

Oh thanks for the replies all!
Minimu, yes I realise that naturediet is a complete diet, BUT I had 2 large bags of orijen and one of Barkingheads,and really didnt want to waste it(have already donated two large sacks of premium dry complete to local rescue that hse refused to touch ) so am currently just adding a small handful to her naturediet and reducing ammount of naturediet accordingly!

Will try baking some nature diet....she loves working for her food,so would be good if I could use her reg food when training...I often give her some of her breakfast in a Kong when I go to take kids to school...

The trouble is that when she gets ANY treats at all she decides she will stop eating her regular food and will just hold out for her next treat...she is really stubborn LOL And obviously she cant exist on a diet entirely of treats....and I try to do some training with her each day, so it's not even just once a week...

When we first tried to put her on dry complete she went for over 4 days without eating anything .....really!

Yes...did try the clicker....BUT didnt get past the initial phase of conditioning it with treats...due to same problem...

Bella...yes she LOVES toys.....her favourite thing in the whole world is tennis balls LOL In fact I ould say she is morebothered about playing than food. BUT I cant figure out howto use thatin some situations....eg..for gettingher to walk withouttugging on lead...obviously I cant stop every few steps and play fetch with her...

And thanks for tip off on cheap naturediet

Oh,and thanks for tip of giving her dry comlete as a treat...unfortunately she doesn't really like that to begin with LOL

Use the clicker but the reward is the tennis ball. She only gets the ball after a click.

so re the walking on the lead. I always teach lead walking off lead then the dogs can not pull at all.

In a secure place get the dog to your side and show her the tennis ball I hope she will walk close to you trying to get the ball when she is in the right position and all 4 feet on the ground click and give her the ball. Keep doing this until she will walk in the right place then put on the lead and add the word heel or close. This should take several days and will neeed reinforcing in more challenging area eg out on walks.

I still wouldn't worry about her not eating no healthly dog has ever starved itself. Do the training with the treats at the meal time put down some food if it is not eaten after 15 mins pick it up and offer no more food until next meal time.

Honestly she will not starve. Also none of my dogs get the amount of food stated on the packets they all eat much less than than so do not worry as long as she has energy and is healthy.

My collie won't work for treats but will do anything for a special tuggy of hers. So all her training is done with the tuggy. She is not allowed to keep it she has to earn it but at 11 she will almost do back flips for it (Ok I made that bit up )but she will do almost anything for it!

thanks minimu. Great idea with the tennis ball....will try that.

The whole food thing has been a PITA TBH. I do put it down,then take it up after 20 mins...on the whole she is better now...
I KNOW you're right about her not starving herself...but I do get stressed when she refuses 3/4 meals in a row....I know I should just relax over the whole thing really...
I have wondered about feeding her 1 meal a day instead of 2....(obviously still correct ammount, but in one meal) as she always seems to eat better in the evenings...as it is she has 3/4 of her daily food in evenings and 1/4 in morning...
Now just need to find cheap supplier of tennis balls....or else a doggy proof one...we go through them at a shocking pace LOL

And LOL at image of back flipping 11 yr old collie!

My mum (prof. dog trainer) only uses treats when the dog comes to call, and even then the treat is only half a kids chocolate button size

All the rest is through voice and touch - a quick tickle under the chin and exuberant "good girl/boy" are all the dogs need

ok...progress so far....
With the tennis ball....I get her walking nicely to heel....click...give ball..praise..then she just goes mad dropping ball and bouncing up at me to throw it...which is fine,except as soon as I throw it,thatis then end of training as playing fetch is ALL she isinterested in

I have been consistent in using LOTS of praise for walking to heel on the lead when out for walks...and the occassional half yoghurt drop...and it DOES seem to be working though,as she is definitely better.Although she now seems to be freaked out by Outdoor Christmas lights and giant inflatable Santas which makes her evening walk more challenging!

She has however stopped eating AGAIN!!! Has now refued her tea last night,breakfast and tea today I am putting her food down,leaving for 30 mins,then taking up...trying not to stress but I hate it when she doesnt eat...
She still has endless energy bless her...the owner of a springer spaniel commented today on how much bounce and energy she has LOL

She is also a bit miffed with me today as I have been out more than usual (nativities!)and she does like to be kept occupied ....sigh...

gosh this whole doggy thing is challenging...
But so worth it!

Am going to try for lots more mini training sessions tomorrow as I am around more...then back to classes on Sunday....

I am really hoping she makes enough progress on the obedience to beable to start agility in the summer...she is a fast learner...but very stubborn LOL

Can you get one of those balls on a string then she can have the ball and you have the other end.

I have working gun dogs and haven't used any food treats for training them. The two things just don't go!

They respond really well with just voice and strokes; but the stroke part has to fit the dog. I have one really exuberant, over-excitable one and for her it has to be a gentle rub of her chest. Another who goes completely loopy and can't concentrate if she's touched on the head and the third needs massive strokes in a very over-excitable fashion, otherwise she just isn't interested (actually, the third dog can't cope with being told off either - it completely freaks her out).

It sounds as though your dog is really bright - maybe try training with voice and touch alone?

Minimu...she does have a couple of those....but really, it isnt exactly the BALL she wants...it's to PLAY fetch with the ball IYSWIM

daisy yes, I think she is bright...(or maybe just tell myself that is why she is so full-on sometimes LOL)And actually I am begining to discover that she does respond really well to voice and touch.She LOVES a good ruffle under the chin...She also doesnt like getting told off...and a couple of times today on lead she has started to tug,and a gentle but firm "NO" has brought her back well,and then I have added "Heel" and "good heel" as she is walking well and that has kept her happy....(till she saw her doggy friend ....with a BALL!)

Sometimes it is hard though as I normally have a buggy with my 20 mnth old ds in...and dd who is 3 lagging behind....so not enough hands really...

Will get with her on my own later so will add in a bit more training then
We do stuff in the house...but she is always really good when weare indoors with no distractions....another story out and about LOL

I think you'll find that some of the best trained dogs have a moment where something over there is much more fun that whatever it is your doing.

Keep going as your going as it sounds as though your making great progress. She just needs consistant work.

Good luck

Thanks all....

I have been working with her using praise/touch/and limited treats and she is doing well
We had our second training session today and it went great! I did use treats for this....

She is eating Ok again...we have found that making sure she gets NO scraps of our food seems to be the most important thing...she ate breakfast well today...only half her tea, but that is ok as she did get lots of treats today...

No more sessions till after Christmas...so will have to keep up the good work on our own till then LOL