Can anyone advise on suitable breed of dog?

[Molesworth]

I was going to put more detail in the title, but this newfangled mumsnet cuts the end off, so here goes.

I live in a flat in central London with no garden and I'd like to get a dog. I've been investigating the idea of a greyhound, and someone is coming to do a home check tomorrow, but I am fairly sure I'll be refused because the two storeys of my flat are connected by a steel spiral staircase, which I know a grey would struggle with. There is a way round this (using the main shared staircase) but it would probably be a bit awkward.

So my question is, which type of dog could I get if not a grey?

I'm after a companion dog for me because I'm at home on my own a lot of the time (studying and working part-time for my partner's business), so the dog wouldn't be left alone much (although it would be nice to be able to pop out to the shops or to the occasional appointment for up to 2 hours without needing a dog sitter). We don't have young children (two teenagers) or other pets. I enjoy walking and we live near parks and have access to a large communal garden in the nearby square (less than a minute's walk from my front door).

I'd rather have an adult rescue dog than buy a puppy from a breeder.

Given the choice I prefer dogs from the hound group.

Although I enjoy walking, I would prefer a dog with a low-medium exercise requirement.

I'm quite keen on the idea of training classes (as much for me as the dog) and don't mind grooming, although generally would prefer not to have to contend with tumbleweeds of fur on a daily basis.

I have a friend with a Staffie who happily lives in a flat and bowls up and down my spiral stairs when he visits, and Battersea Dogs Home is full of Staffies, but am resistant to the idea of a terrier, although I could be persuaded.

Any thoughts?

Molesworth
I have said this before, but it bears repeating. Get a Maltese/King Charles.

Maybe it is just our doggy, but I have only heard her bark twice.

I did read that it is something that you can train your dog to do, if you react everytime that they bark/whine. So far it has not been necessary.

Have a look at the pic on my profile, she is a daaaarling doggy.

She is very sweet MmeL

I'm just going to let the people at Battersea advise, but I am interested in finding out more about doggy behaviour and training before we go ahead so that we can start off on the right foot.

You are putting so much care and thought into this. Any dog that finds a home in the Molesworth household is a lucky dog. Good luck with your search and don't forget to let us nosyparkers know what you get.

Thanks MmeL, photos will be forthcoming!

I have ordered "The Dog Listener" from Amazon - anyone read it? I thought it looked like a good guide to canine psychology

This is a good book on behaviour and especially dogs' body language

here

One of the fantastic things about Battersea is that the staff are so knowledgeable and they even have a behavioural support line for once you get doggy home.

I made an enquiry about a couple of dogs at a nearby RSPCA rescue centre and had a rather disheartening chat with one of their staff, who implied that living in a home with no garden isn't fair on a dog ("I certainly wouldn't do it" and "my dogs would hate me if I expected them to go for a walk to do their late night/early morning wee/poo"). She didn't actually say that we can't have a dog, but I felt she was trying to put me off the idea.

On the other hand our dog-owning, flat-dwelling, gardenless friend said that the issue of having a garden is a bit of a red herring in his opinion. His dog seems very happy and I know he's well cared for, with one big walk a day (a couple of hours off lead) supplemented by short walks around the block for toilet purposes. This is normality for this particular dog and he appears perfectly happy with it.

Am starting to wonder if any rescue places will be willing to home a dog with us, and wonder where on earth all the dog owners around here got their pets!

@ no garden being an issue

IMHO someone with a garden is more likely to be complacent and shove dog outside in garden not talking from experience or anything

Greyhound.. if that was your first choice, go for it.
You will then know you will be happy with your choice. Go with your heart. GH's are adaptable to any environment, friendly dogs, IMO stairs wouldn't be a problem for a dog racing on sand and travelled in crates..

And there are so so so many that need rescuing.

Good luck with your search xx

bluesapphire

Thanks for the encouraging reply; I was starting to feel a bit about the whole thing.

The other thing that she said was "what if you're ill and can't face going out to take the dog for a wee?". This is a good point and of course it's one that we've considered (including "what if the dog has the runs and we have to take it out every half an hour to do its business?"). There are two of us plus two teenagers in this house and I'm trying to remember the last time all of us were bed-ridden at once

I realise that there are a lot of irresponsible people out there who don't look after their dogs properly, or don't think all of this through before getting a dog, and I guess the rescue people are raising all the negatives for a very good reason, but even though I'm not a dog expert, even I can tell that I'm being misinformed on some things (like the garden issue, or the lady who lives in an enormous house with garden in Fulham telling me that my three-bedroomed flat hasn't got enough indoor space for a dog).

Anyway, rant over. I haven't yet been to Battersea because I'm still waiting for the letter of permission from my landlord. I'm hoping that the Battersea people - being in the city themselves - will have a slightly more positive attitude to the issue of dogs in the city than the other rescue places I've spoken to. If not, then I'll just have to move

Sorry to hear about the RSPCA's attitude, Molesworth. I know they do a lot of good work but I do believe sometimes they are over-strict in their adoption procedures, which is just such a shame when people like you get turned away, and when there are so many dogs needing homes.

I used to do homechecks for a small local dog shelter and from what you've said about your circumstances, I certainly wouldn't have turned you down.

Keeping everything crossed that Battersea are more positive - don't lose heart!

Thanks bella - sorry for the rant earlier on! I do understand totally that rescue places need to do everything in their power to ensure the prospective owners have thought the decision through and can offer a suitable, long term home to a dog. And to be fair, the RSPCA woman did not turn us down (she said they have a couple of Staffies and a couple of JRTs that might be suitable for us ... and that in itself made me go a bit because I think a JRT could be too much of a handful for me). They don't know me from adam, so for all they know I could be a complete idiot who hasn't thought about it properly at all. Anyway, the dogs I was particularly interested in had already been rehomed, so I'm just going to wait until we have our written permission and go to good old Battersea who should in theory have a more enlightened attitude towards London dog owning!

Sorry to hear that you are having such difficulties, Molesworth.

Fwiw, I agree that not having a garden probably means that the dog is getting more walks.

I shamefully admit that our wee doggy gets popped in the garden last thing at night to have a wee. And sometimes during the day as well.

Hope you find a dog soon, you will certainly appreciate her all the more.

Hello MmeL

It would definitely be a boon to have a garden

I suppose I thought that it would be relatively easy to home a rescue dog because there are so many of them needing homes, and didn't expect to meet with such negativity. But I've given myself a slap now and reminded self that they are only trying to do their best by the dogs, and to raise possible problems in case I hadn't thought about them already.

Will post here with any updates!

My mother had 40 show dogs at one time when I was a kid and my Dad always had working gun dogs and sheep dogs so I know a thing or two abut them.

On no account get a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. They need a huge amount amount of excercise and are extremely powerul dogs that are difficult to handle.

You live in a flat in London with no garden so keeping a dog there will be extremely difficult and I have to say cruel to the dog in my view.

If you abslutely must have a dog pick something very very small like a Chihuahua or a Pomeranian that wil need very little excercise.

I know a lot of people want a dog but never think about excercising it, taking it to the toilet etc.

ABD, if the dog gets plenty of exercise and regular toilet walks, why is it cruel?

Not being defensive, I genuinely would like to understand, and if it really is cruel, then I'd forget the whole idea.

molesworth - I am genuinely not having a go at you as a lot of people like the idea of having a dog as a companion.

It is cruel for the following reasons.

1. A dog is really still a wild animal (see Dog Whisperer for details) with a huge amount of energy and a lot of natural instincts to forage and hunt. It cannot express those in a flat and taking a dog for a quick walk and a wee is not enough.

1. Imagine what you would feel like if you were in a prison for the rest of your life.

Just as an aside - I see you are renting. I think your landlord may be very reluctant for fear of damage and how would you feel losing your deposit.

If you would like a companion and that is an entirely understandable feeling I hope you will think of perhaps a different kind of pet.

If you could maybe rent a house with a small garden so at least the dog could spend a lot of its time outdoors then perhaps a small dog might be OK but you would stil need to take it on long walks an dideally a place to run.

I always strongly advise anyone thinking of getting a dog to put themselves in the place of the dog and think whether you wil be able to really give ita truely happy 'dogs life'.

Could you ever find a place to let it off the lead and let it run as hard as it wanted for a couple of miles at 25 miles an hour every day. Think of what a sheep dog does running on the fells after a flock of sheep for 8 hours. Think what a labrador gun dog does on a shooting day. Think of what a greyhound does when running after a hare or rabbit. A dog is high performance animal with a body and brain that needs intense excercise every day.

Perhaps a very small dog cannot do this kind of excercise but it still needs to behave like a dog and excercise its brain.

I know you're not having a go at me ABD and thanks for posting here, because I do want to hear all points of view. Let me just say first of all that I would not think of having a dog if all I was prepared to do was take it for a "quick walk and a wee". Of course that would be cruel!

I have picked the brains of my friend who has a dog in similar circumstances and he takes Frank for a 2 hour walk every morning (off lead exercise on open ground). The dog also goes out for short walks for toileting purposes later in the day. I'm assuming that if I were to have a dog I would need to provide this level of exercise each day - a couple of hours off-lead so that the dog can run/forage etc etc as well as "short walks for a wee". It should be remembered that there are lots of large green spaces in and around London where dogs can run, although some parks do not allow dogs to be let off their lead.

Re: the landlord thing, we are not prohibited from keeping pets, but have to apply for permission (granted on a case by case basis) and show written permission to any rescue centre homing a dog with us. Our neighbour downstairs has a dog.

On the other hand, I do tend to agree that cities are not the ideal habitats for dogs (or humans for that matter). I posted here for advice about breeds because certain breeds (I'm thinking working dogs such as those you mention) would be less happy in a city environment than others (e.g. lap dogs). Frankly no rescue centre worth its salt would think of homing a boisterous working dog here. But ... regardless of breed you are right that dogs are not so different from each other in that they do need a lot of exercise and stimulation, and I think it would be far better if I did have a garden. The dog wouldn't get much in the way of exercise in a garden but it would be able to wander in and out and play games outdoors, and that isn't possible here. That's not to say games can't be played indoors, but there isn't a huge amount of room for a dog to run about inside, and this does concern me and makes me think that it wouldn't be right to go for anything but a small to medium sized, not-very-boisterous (perhaps older) dog.

I've been asking advice from dog owners all over the place and few have ventured to say that living in a city flat would be cruel per se. I think this is because it isn't necessarily cruel, but we as owners would have to be prepared to make a lot more effort to provide for the dog's needs in this environment.

Another factor which - rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure - comes into it is would a dog be happier here than it is in a rescue kennel? In other words, whilst this isn't the perfect environment, is it better than a cage? As I've mentioned already on this thread, we do have a lot to offer a dog, but does this outweigh the problem of not having a garden?

molesworth - you sound as if you are being very responsible in the way you are approaching this.

Maybe if I talk about my own situation and then maybe you can get an insight about my thinking. In the end it has to be your decision.

First, I know a lot about dogs and am a dog lover but realistic about dogs as well. I lived with and around dogs both as working dogs and pets until I left home 25 years ago.

Since I left home I have never had a dog. I lived in London in a flat for 12 of those 25 years and then in a variety of houses on the edge of a nice city with a garden and always near open countryside space where a dog could excercise freely. Despite my current circumstances, I still chose not to have a dog even though I work at home a lot.

The reason I choose not to have a dog is that it is as big a responsibility as having a child and I sometimes have to be out of the house and cannot be there all the time. I also like to go on holiday occassionally and even when I am at home I need to work so I am not free to just take several hours off whenever the dog needs it.

As I say, I am a dog lover but I see people near where I live really taking their dog for a walk on sufference, letting the dog poo on the pavement at night time when they go out for a quick walk because they cannot be bothered to take it properly. I even see them driving their dog to the local field and after a quick ten minutes then just drivng back home again. Why not go for a proper walk I think to myself?

It is really a huge repsonsibility having a dog and I just think that even in my circumstances I could not devote the time to it.

The question you need to ask yourself is - can I devote all the time freely and willingly (before myself or my work) to an animal that is dependent on me for its entire mental and physical health and well being?

Good luck whatever choice you make.

You're absolutely right, and I must admit I have doubts about the level of commitment required (seeing it very much like having another child). Selfishly, I do miss having a pet (we've never had a dog in our adult lives for similar reasons to you - work commitments, children, not wanting another tie). Now my kids are almost grown up, I am at home a lot (working and studying) and would love the companionship of a dog. At the same time I have this lurking doubt about whether I'm being selfish, whether a dog would really be happy in this situation, whether I might get a dog and then regret it, because even in a perfect situation for a dog responsible ownership involves a lot of time and effort, as you point out. Living where we do, we'd have to make even more effort to ensure that dog was not suffering.

There is a chance that my landlord will refuse permission, in which case the decision is made for me. If I am granted permission I still feel apprehensive. Quite frankly I'm putting more thought into this than I did into the decision to have my children (which just sort of 'happened', as it so often does!).

We are planning to move out of London in 5-10 years (this is dependent on family and work stuff) and I might just be better waiting until then. Suitability for a dog will be a factor in choosing where to live, for sure, because I would dearly love to home a couple of greyhounds one day.

So perhaps I am being too selfish and too impatient. Anyway, a sincere thank you for taking the time to post here and really make me think even harder about what would be a life-changing decision.

PS I've just been reading The Dog Listener (by Jan Fennell, if I remember correctly) - am I right in thinking this is a similar approach to dog whispering?

PPS Another option I thought of is to volunteer at a rescue place to walk dogs or hassle dog-owning friends to let me 'borrow' their dogs for walks

I was going to suggest that maybe you could do some dog walking for someone. I know you can get paid for walking other people's dogs - but it is not the same as owning a dog of course.

If you just like dogs and want the excercise it might be a fun compromise and also help you 'try out' some breeds.

Maybe also you could look after a friend's dog when they go on holiday. That way you could really experience what it is like to have a dog all day. Just be careful that if you offer to look after a friends dog the
dog does not run away from you when you take it out. Do not ever let it off the lead in an open area unless you know it will definitley come back when called.

Sometimes a dog will run away to look for its owner. A frightened dog looking for its owner can easily cover 10 miles in a few hours. My mum ran a boarding kennel when she was younger and they had very strict security for this reason.

Just wanted to chip in here - I have had dogs all my life, been a vet nurse and worked for welfare groups and I don't think a dog in a flat is really any worse off than a dog which is let out into a garden, and if it goes for walks instead then surely it is better off?

I have 2 large dogs who get 2 long walks each day, and at other times they are let out into what is frankly an enormous garden but they do very little out there except a quick sniff and a wee. They do not show any excitement when I usher them out for a wee (in fact my older dog often stages a sit-in and refuses to go out), while if I pick up the leads for a walk they go mad with excitement.

Dogs are not basically wild animals: they have evolved over time as companion animals, and I believe human company and interaction is a very large key to their happiness. It sounds as if you are willing/able to provide this in spades, Molesworth.

Further, Jan Fennell is unqualified and spouts long-discredited pack theory in her books. Please don't waste money on her books.

Molesworth-I think the main thing a dog requires, above everything else, is company. You obviously understand this and as you say you are at home for much of the time you will be able to provide it.
Many breeds do not need hours of free exercise every day. We have 3 dogs who go out twice a day for a walk, and in between have access to our (small) garden. They are quite happy with this as long as someone is here most of the time.
You will get so much out of keeping one-all the effort they take is well worth it!

Wish I'd checked here first before bothering with Jan Fennell then - it all sounded so sensible too!

Is dog whisperer Cesar Millan rubbish?

Any recommendations for books that give an insight into the canine mind?

Thank you for the further thoughts re: the rights and wrongs of dogs in city flats.

Re: looking after someone else's dog - I have looked after Frank (the Staffie I keep mentioning) a couple of times while his dad has been on holiday, although this was quite a long time ago now. Tbh I didn't find the walking + toilet walks at all onerous because that's just the way it is with a dog in London ... and I like walking. But having someone else's dog for a week is obviously very different from having your own dog forever.

Just re-read the thread and realised you'd already bought Jan Fennell - oops

tbh that kind of approach splits MNetters into two fairly distinct camps but there is good, proper scientific evidence as to why dogs do not behave in the same way as wolves.

My favourite is Bruce Fogle (I think I already recemmended one of his books) - he's very well qualified and very knowldegeable, but you'll probably get a shed load of Jan Fennell fans on in a minute saying how fab she is. That's the joy of dog ownership - a bit like motherhood in that people have widely different opinions

Anyway, keep smiling Molesworth