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Original poster

AIBU to expect a 4.5 you not to torment the puppy?

38 replies

MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 14:17

We have a 10 week old puppy and DS has taken to pulling it's tail/ears, pulling it around and generally being too rough with the poor little thing.

I have tried reasoning with him. Spent a while yesterday explaining exactly what we mean when we say "don't be so rough", using a toy dog to show DS how to lift and hold the puppy properly.

I have also tried punishing him. He did not get to take his toy to school this pm after I caught him pulling her tail. The dog is so good natured that she just lets him but he has to understand that it is not ok.

The neighbour has a big dog and he has never pulled their dog's tail, so he does know that it can be dangerous for him to torment a dog.

What can I do?

OP posts:
TipsyFairydifferentID · 04/12/2008 14:22

Maybe he doesn't see her yet as a dog, but still toy sized.
How is Daphne settling in?

Jazzicatz · 04/12/2008 14:26

My ds's aged 4 and 6 put the cat in the bottom of the filing cabinet and left her for 7 hours bfore telling me They absolutely love the cat but see her as aplay thing. They were both severely told off and so far they have been very good. The cat came out unscathed!

Original poster
MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 14:37

She is doing great. Did not even cry on her first night with us.

Jazzicat (shock) at your DCs. Did they file her under C for cat or P for pussy?

We have told him that she is not a toy. Am I expecting too much from him?

OP posts:
Jazzicatz · 04/12/2008 14:40

I know - they were very apologetic after. The 4 year old blamed it on his imaginary friend and the older one said he had followed the lead taken by his little brother. They just don't really understand the concept that animals feel pain and fear also. They did have a real talking to and hopefully its sunk in

TipsyFairydifferentID · 04/12/2008 14:59

I think he's not to young to start learning, but he may see her as a playmate rather than thee delicate little thing she is at the moment. Just keep reinforcing wht you have started and it will sink in.

Blondeshavemorefun · 04/12/2008 15:05

at 4.5 they are quite capable of istening to what you say and trying to obey

its good that your puppy is good natured, as ours is, but depending on what breed and size they will grow into - then maybe one day your puppy might turn round and snap (in their own defence)

try and explain that he is like a person, and if someone pulled your childs ears/hair /poked him etc - that he wouldnt like it

tbh I wouldnt let a 4.5 child lift/carry a puppy even if a small breed, they could seriously damage the puppy if they dropped him

i would carry on telling your son, to warn once and then take away a toy/tv/treat etc if he doesnt listen to you

Original poster
MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 18:12

Blondes
She is a Maltese terrier x king charles spaniel so more lapdog than guarddog Still, if provoked I guess she could give a nasty wee bite.

You are right that he should not really be picking her up but it is hard to enforce as I cannot be in the same room as them all the time.

I will have another chat.

Do you think I should be taking away treats eg. Sweets, tv priveliges?

OP posts:
Blondeshavemorefun · 04/12/2008 18:29

a spaniel - how cute LOVE those, and their eyes always look like melted chocolate, never seen a puppy one - have you got a pic?

def have another chat - i had to tell my 3yr off for tormenting playing with our puppy when we got him,and yes i did have to take away his fav teddy and tv a few times as kept ignoring me

at 4 and even 3, they know what they are allowed to do

Dottoressa · 04/12/2008 18:30

Unfortunately, I fear YABU. I can't see how any 4-y-o DS could have the sense/imagination/empathy to be kind to a puppy!!

FabioTheLiterateCat · 04/12/2008 18:32

That puppy got what it deserved.
It's going to be a DOG ffs.
Jazzicatz's dsses

Blondeshavemorefun · 04/12/2008 18:34

most 4yrs manage to be nice to friends at nursery etc, so should be quite capable not to pull ears/tail etc if told not to

it is just simple instructions - like dont touch the fire, you will get burnt etc

though of course all children do also fight as well at nursery

TipsyFairydifferentID · 04/12/2008 18:37

oo, fabio is in a combative mood tonight? Too much catnip?

Original poster
MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 19:14
OP posts:
Original poster
MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 19:18

Dr-essa
I do think that I can expect a 4yo to show empathy. He knows when he has hurt his sister. He improved altered her drawing of a reindeer last week by drawing a tail on it. DD howled "reindeers don't have tails". When he came home from school he had gave her a present - a drawing he had done of a reindeer. So he understood fine and well that she was upset and how to make amends.

OP posts:
FabioTheLiterateCat · 04/12/2008 19:19

Whiskas.
Common.

GrimmaTheNome · 04/12/2008 19:20

I think until your DS has grown up a bit, you'd better try to keep him and the pup apart unless supervised. A strict no touching unless there's a grown up present would probably be a good idea. And no picking up.

[same applies to cats but at least if they get dropped they land lightly, not like a poor puppy dog]

chaufleur · 04/12/2008 19:29

YANBU.

I disagree Dottoressa, plenty of 4yo have something in them to be kind to a puppy. If not kind then at least loving and gentle.

I would be pretty strict about this one TBH. This is not a new toy that your DS has to be coaxed and persuaded into treating nicely. When it comes to puppies/other live creatures, a zero tolerance is needed with DC's ie firm "NO - you do NOT pull the puppy's tail". Remove the puppy. A baby under 24months is different, a 4yo is old enough to know and learn.

Sometimes it's possible kids are just exploring a sense of status with behaviour like this, they are used to being the smallest/most vulnerable members of the household themselves, and all of a sudden they have something which even they have "power" over, in the way adults have "power" over them.

You have taken action perfectly so far in monitoring and helping your DS to understand how to treat this puppy but after a certain amount of time with no real effort to change from him, a firmer approach is possibly required.

Heifer · 04/12/2008 19:40

Agree that a 4 yr old is old enough to know better..

I personally would not leave a dog and child alone together if I couldn't trust either of them.

We had 2 old dogs until recently and DD who is now almost 5 has never hurt them or been too rough with them. If she didn when she was younger then I would have told her off and not let her touch the dog again. I certaily would NOT let her pick either of them up (not that she could I guess)..

I think you need to forget that it is a small passive dog and treat the situation you would as if the dog could hurt your son, as I am guessing that one day he will if your son doesn't learn how to treat it.

Original poster
MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 19:41

Chaufleur
Hmm, I was wondering about the power thing as well. It is almost as if DS is trying to show the dog that he is stronger.

Blondes
Photo on profile. She looks more like a maltese terrier than a spaniel but she does have lovely eyes

OP posts:
CindersHasAChristmasBallgown · 04/12/2008 19:44

my ds and our puppy really do have a power struggle

and I do find it rather stressful, I try very hard not to leave them alone quite tricky with open plan rooms

am watching this thread with interest

MarmadukeScarlet · 04/12/2008 20:01

I'm afriad I would never leave a child and puppy/dog together unsupervised.

Buy a crate, give the dog a 'safe' place to go and explain to you DS - who is old enough to understand - that he cannot touch pup once in cage.

Despite the small size, it could still potentially harm him. My worst bite was from a toy poodle (bit me in the face - I was examining its teeth in the show ring when I was judging) none of my own big dogs ever bit me.

chaufleur · 04/12/2008 21:14

Agree that even the smallest breed can "turn" under duress, nip, and cause damage especially if nip is to facial area for example.

I think I would try to make the puppy into a personality so she's less of a vulnerable toy. Give her a "voice" and be her channel to express her "feelings". Your DS needs to identify that this puppy does have feelings and needs to be treated respectfully.

Either speak as if you are the puppy: "It hurt when you pulled my tail, I am sad and frightened of you", or speak on behalf of her e.g "Puppy says she doesn't like it when you hurt her, it makes her sad and scared. Poor, poor puppy" (lots of emphasis on this bit as it should encourage him to feel guilty, which is good in this case, and hopefully, in turn, more compassionate).

"What can you do to make her feel better, do you think?" Here, if he can't think of anything, suggest some options and ask him to choose one, e.g: Give her a treat/stroke her very gently/say sorry to her.

Follow up with LOTS of praise when he's done it nicely.

Original poster
MmeLindt · 04/12/2008 21:17

Chaufleuer
That is good advice. Will try the guilt thing on him

We do have a crate and I am getting her used to going in it. She tends to follow me around though

OP posts:
LittleB · 04/12/2008 22:14

I don't think you are being unreasonable, my DD aged 3.6 knows how to be gentle with our puppy and never to pick him up. We do have the advantage in that she has grown up around dogs, as we also have a 21mth old dog, and when she was born I had a 13yr old collie, who was gentle and sensitive, so she learnt from a young age that if she was anything other than gentle the dog went to its bed to hide and she always has to leave the dogs alone when they are in their bed, as its their sanctuary; as the sofa is hers when they do their manic puppy thing and hare around the room!
I do think she is also careful with him as he has had a puppy nibble at her and has quite sharp claws, so although he has never marked her, he has hurt her a couple of times. She knows not to cuddle him unless I am in the room. They are only left briefly, e.g if I pop upstairs to get the washing etc.
I think children need to respect animals. Just try explaining it to your ds more, and perhaps take away treats when he is rough.

Blondeshavemorefun · 05/12/2008 12:26

"Unfortunately, I fear YABU. I can't see how any 4-y-o DS could have the sense/imagination/empathy to be kind to a puppy!!"

what complete rubbish - as i said before 3/4 know right from wrong, and if you tell them not to pull tail/poke eyes etc, then they should be able to obey

yes,may be the odd time, they dont listen, children arent robots, but at that age they are more than capable of listening and doing as they are told

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