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Oh RubberDuck!

37 replies

wigparty · 19/11/2008 20:12

Hope you don't mind me hunting you out...you always give great advice when it comes to fish!

I'm not having a good time with my pets at the moment. First my dog had a meltdown and now my two goldfish seem to be suffering with swim bladder - one floating at the top of the tank or sitting on the gravel, the other floating virtually vertically, head down.

I bought some swim bladder treatment (Interpret), which I've dosed the tank with about four times, every four days. Together with this I've added some aquarium salt.

Whenever I do (partial) water changes, I add drops of ammo lock and stress zyme to the new water. (I've been doing small water changes with each dose of swim bladder treatment as I need to add more water with the treatment each time).

One fish seems to be doing much better, but now the other (who used to be less affected) seems worse and is vertical a lot of the time. It seems to be a real effort for him to stay straight

I've tried feeding them grapes but that hasn't helped - well it might have helped a bit but they're still not great.

One thing I don't have is any water testing kit. I'm starting to think this might be essential, am I right? I'm really not sure about a) what to get and b) what to do

I'd be so grateful for any advice. I'm very fond of them and want them to get better...

Thanks
Wig

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wigparty · 19/11/2008 20:13

grapes I meant PEAS

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wigparty · 20/11/2008 10:07

Rubberduck they were fed this morning (I feed them the small pellet type food once every other day) and they've both got a very good appetite and are currently whizzing around checking there's no food left!

This is a good sign no?

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bella29 · 20/11/2008 10:20

Rubberduck - come in now!

(She's off water sampling the Great Barrier Reef, I think)

wigparty · 20/11/2008 10:24

Seriously!?

Will look at water testing kits today and will hopefully report good news on her return! Thanks

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bella29 · 20/11/2008 10:48

No, just joking

Well, she might be, for all I know!

wigparty · 20/11/2008 10:51

Doh doh doh! How silly do I feel!

Just thought "she knows her water and her fish, of course she'll be sampling water at the Great Barrier Reef"

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bella29 · 20/11/2008 10:54

Like I said, she might well be...

Her knowledge of fish is truly astounding

bella29 · 20/11/2008 17:07

Giving you a bump - she's back!!!

wigparty · 20/11/2008 19:17

Thanks Bella

Rubberduck, I thought you were in the Barrier Reef!

I've bought a testing kit for my sick fishies and levels are fine apart from Nitrate and pH. pH reads about 8 (which is a bit high I think?) and the nitrate is very high (between 40 and 80 I reckon).

Should I do a partial water change do you think?

The kit recommends nitrosorb for the nitrates and phDown for the ph, will it be okay if I wait until Saturday to get these?

Sorry for all the questions , just want to sort these guys out!

Little fish is still not right at all. He seems to be head heavy, or bottom light, and it seems to be a struggle for him to stay horizontal.

Million thanks in advance if you can offer me any of your wisdom

Wig

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RubberDuck · 23/11/2008 17:55

YIKES ... I've only just seen this thread, sorry. In my defence I've been ill this week and haven't been on mumsnet much and only then scanning through active conversations.

Not anywhere near the Great Barrier Reef, unfortunately

Scanning through the thread and commenting as I go, so forgive me if I suggest something you did later!!

Sounds like you're doing all the right stuff with treatment etc. Yes, water testing kit is pretty much essential - the test strip ones are tempting as they're quick, but really the test tube ones are best as they test for ammonia too. I think you can get ammonia test tube test separately (think it's API who make them?). I have to say, now my tank is established I cheat and use the test strips on a regular basis to check the nitrate/nitrite/ph and only use the test tube kit for ammonia if I have any signs of sickness

Right... caught up now. What's the pH/nitrate readings for water straight out the tap? That's always very interesting. I find that the nitrates here are v high even before they get to my tank. I wouldn't recommend nitrosorb or messing with ph adjusters as the ph things in particular can then swing things wildly and upset the balance of your tank, but don't worry too much if you've got them already (my fault for being slow!!)

I use Seachem Prime as my decholorinator as it also neutralises any excess nitrates from my tap water (but obviously can't use it as a substitute for regular water changes) - it levels the playing field a bit better.

Keep an eye on the pH, but my gut feeling is if you've bought the goldfish from a retailer in the local area they will be used to that pH and won't be too critical - you may find that as your tank stabilizes that will come down naturally anyway, but let me know what the pH out the tap is as that will give a clearer picture.

Yes to partial water changes to bring it down - consider doing one every day for a week or so while the fish are sick. I also like Melafix as a good general fish tonic (Pimafix is also handy to keep in).

Are you removing any carbon in the filter while you treat? If you leave it in it'll suck all the medication straight back out.

Other Q's ... how big is your tank and how long have you had it for? If younger than a couple of months its likely it's not finished cycling yet which may mean daily water changes for a while and regular testing.

Hope this helps and it's not too late. Apologies for being a bit random. I'm up to my eyeballs in painkillers at the moment and am not being that linear!!

RubberDuck · 23/11/2008 18:06

Just to add, I've done a bit of research on pH and goldfish and my gut feeling was right. Apparently they can tolerate a large range between 6.5-8.25pH so I really wouldn't worry about that - concentrate on getting the nitrates down and fishy well

RubberDuck · 23/11/2008 18:20

And speaking of random, I've thought of some other things to look at.

What is your goldfishes diet like normally? Fish cannot live by flake alone (well, okay, they can, but they won't be as healthy). There are some really good frozen foods available now at aquatic shops and you can keep in the freezer and just press a small cube out from the blister pack when you want to use it. These include brine shrimp, daphnia, blood worms and various other things. I know for tropical fish you can get a "mixed" pack which makes for nice variety - if you ask at the LFS (Local Fish Shop) they'll tell you what they recommend for goldies.

You can also try them with different fresh veg than peas - you'll have to experiment to see what they like (my tropicals are really fussy little buggers!) but some ideas are:

apple (small bits, peeled)
banana (small chunk)
grape (peeled)
cucumber (I nuke it for a few seconds to soften it before putting it in)
lettuce (ditto - stinks though and can turn water green!)

You can get little corkscrew style metal weights to lodge them at the bottom. Always remove after 24hrs to stop any uneaten food rotting.

In terms of frequency, it's all a bit of an experiment. What I found worked for us (but these are smaller tropical fish) is flake twice a week, frozen twice a week, micro pellets (I had a free pack I'm using up!) once a week and veg/fruit once a week. Then one day off "fasting" (coincidentally also my tank cleaning day).

Another culprit to bad water can be overfeeding the fish. Flake packets don't help in that they say feed three times a day, they don't need that. Goldfish will also just keep eating and not stop.

While they're sick, once a day will be more than enough (and in fact, my fish only get fed once a day normally and they're fine and healthy and growing well - in the wild food can be sporadic and they can go a couple of weeks without eating) and that will help keep water pollution manageable. Feed only as much as they can completely eat within 5 minutes. If there's food left floating on the top then you put too much in.

bella29 · 23/11/2008 18:30

Get well soon, Rubberduck!

Was afraid my joke about the Great Barrier Reef had offended you - it really was meant in good faith and as a reflection of your astounding knowledge.

All the best x

RubberDuck · 23/11/2008 19:18

lol don't worry - Great Barrier Reef sounds fab... just where a rubberduck would like to float off to

wigparty · 24/11/2008 10:06

Rubberduck, you are star, thanks for posting and for all the really useful info. I hope you're feeling better now.

Morning Bella!

We actually popped into the fish shop on Saturday and they said exactly the same about pH - the fish would be used to it so it shouldn't be causing any problems. The pH read from the tank was just under 8 but I haven't done a reading straight from the tap, I could do that this evening...

The shop also said rather than buy nitrosorb, just to do water changes until the levels come down. We did get the testube kit (£26 - yikes!) and everything read fine apart from the nitrate levels (+ pH).

Since Saturday, I've done a 30% water change. The tank is 30 litres with filter / oxygen etc. We're upgrading to a bioorb 60 litre by Christmas so they'll have more space .

If I water change every day, should I change as much as 30%?

When I treat the tap water, I'm using stress coat and stress zyme. (We were using ammo lock but shop said stress coat did the same job and was better).

I'm treating the water with Interpret swim bladder treatment every four days, but little fish is still head heavy .

I did add some aqualibrium salt when treating with the swim bladder treatment, but I've been a bit half hearted as I'm not 100% sure how much to add each time and part of me thinks (no, not salt! - I know that's silly).

Would it do any good to treat the water more frequently than every 4 days with the swim bladder stuff?

He's absolutely fine when he's fed, got a great appetite, it's when he's resting. He goes up and 'sits' on a plant so it keeps him straight. If he's not doing that, he's pretty much vertical at the top.

I fed them some pea inners this morning and we feed them very small goldfish food pellets normally, once a day usually. How often should I feed them stuff other than the pellets? I'll definitely have a go at feeding them some of the other fresh stuff.

Phew, what an epic! ... and all the questions

You are kind to plough through all these posts and help pull my fishie through!

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RubberDuck · 24/11/2008 11:01

Sounds like you have an awesome LFS - stick with them, they know what they're talking about.

Biorb 60 will give much more space for your fishies - have you a biorb 30 now? Make sure you carry over sponges and media from the old one to the new so you don't end up with new tank syndrome again. 60L is still a little tight for two goldies (ideally they should have 10 gallons each, approx 40L) so be prepared for another upgrade as they grow, but should be fine in the interim.

Stress coat and zyme is fine (they're API brand) - I used to use those. I switched to Seachem because I discovered that Nitrates were high out of the tap (and I switched everything to Seachem - I have a thing about mixing different branded water treatments... I've heard that occasionally they can do unpredictable things, so best to stick to ALL API or ALL Seachem to be on the safe side).

30% daily water change should be fine as long as you don't go much above that, the fishies have time to acclimatise - although thinking about it that's also diluting your medication for your fish. How much above is your nitrate levels now? If it's masses above I'd stick with the 30% as getting water quality back should be priority. If it's only slightly above maybe drop to a 15% water change.

Aquarium salt can be good stuff but I know what you mean about the dosage. Don't go over what's on the packet for the swim bladder stuff. I would highly recommend Melafix to supplement as it's a general pick me up for fish and I've had more success with that than any specific treatment, to be honest.

As I say with the other food, it's a bit of an art rather than a science. As I said before, I tend to try and give frozen foods twice a week instead of the flake/pellets and fresh once a week - but I know others have different routines. It depends a lot on how well your fish enjoy the alternative foods. My tropical fish go nuts for the frozen foods, but aren't that keen on fruit/veg (but the snails adore the cucumber!) Play it by ear, but I'd say at least once a week have an alternative for a bit of variety.

The last bit I hate to add, and I really want to stress that I don't think you'll need it as he's still eating well, but I think every fish keeper should know it for reference. If he gets very very sick and sluggish and it looks like he's not long for this world, please don't flush him.

Most times it's taken out of your hands, and if the fish dies it's really important to get the body out asap as the other fish will probably try to eat it (and any infection will then pass to the other fish).

However, if you feel the fish is in a lot of distress and there's no hope of recovery, there are lots of suggested ways to euthanize a fish - the 2 kindest and quickest are:

  • remove from tank and chop head off quickly with a knife. (No, I know... I have NEVER EVER managed to do this).
  • remove from tank and place in a small container (old marg container works well - something you'll never use again) with some tank water. You can add a few drops of clove oil (can buy from pharmacy, also good for tooth ache apparently) to dope the fish and then top the container up with cheap (high proof) vodka (you're looking at having 50:50 tank water to vodka). Replace lid, don't look, have a cry, come back later and dispose of body and container. It's swift and painless for the fish.

Hopefully you won't have to do that, I've only had to do it twice (I had suspected case of fish TB and it would have been a long slow death wiping out the rest of the tank in the process), but I think every fish keeper should know what to do and have the relevant supplies in just in case.

Sorry to end on a morbid note. As I say, I'm sure you won't need it - fishie is feeding which is a great sign, he's just got a bit of a bloated and uncomfortable tummy!

Keep me posted!

wigparty · 24/11/2008 11:17

Melafix - I saw that when I was in there, I will pick some up this week.

Your advice is fantastic - even the sad stuff at the end. I'm still hopeful for as long as he's eating but I don't worry, I won't flush if the worst happens

The nitrate levels read between 40 and 80 so I guess that's a priority, it is very high isn't it?

I'll start with once a week on alternative foods and will see how we go from there...

Thank you VERY much !!

I'll let you know how they get on...

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wigparty · 24/11/2008 11:20

p.s. I think I'd have to go for the vodka option (with a healthy slug for me). There's no way I could do the head chop!

Oh, and they're currently in a round bowl with added filter and oxygen. I think it's slightly bigger than the bioorb 30 litre actually. Looking forward to giving them more space at Christmas!

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RubberDuck · 24/11/2008 14:01

It's fairly high yes... but then nitrate straight out of the tap for me is 40 () which is why it's important to know what readings you get from the tap water - in my case, no matter how frequently I change the water I will not get nitrates lower than 40ppm.

Ooo... just thought - if you get the melafix (and this tip is also helpful with the test tube kits). Go to a pharmacy and buy a few of those medicine measured pipette things you use for small babies who spit out medicine on spoons. They're surprisingly handy for measuring out doses and squirting the right amount of tank water into the test tubes!

I'm glad you're finding my advice helpful. I'm not an expert by any means It's worth cultivating the relationship with your LFS - sounds like you've got a good one and they can be an invaluable source of help and advice. There's also some great fish forums around. The one I love (which is very friendly and welcoming) is The Unofficial Biorb Forum - but they have many members who don't have a Biorb anymore, so don't feel you have to wait until you own one to ask advice on there!

wigparty · 24/11/2008 14:33

I see what you mean, I'll test from the tap this evening to see what we've got here. I'll definitely get some Melafix and pipette thingies.

The people in my local fish shop are great, but there seems to be so many different options and recommendations (add this, change that etc.) it can get quite confusing.

You've helped me so much in gaining an understanding of what I should be doing and why I should be doing it! Big thanks to you RD!!

I'll let you know how I the fishies get on, fins crossed...

wig x

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RubberDuck · 24/11/2008 17:40

If it's any consolation I've just noticed one fish is MIA (presumed dead) and another is at the bottom looking listless.

I am joining you in the treatment/monitoring cycle

wigparty · 24/11/2008 19:43

Oh no , will keep fingers crossed things turns out okay ... sending positive fishie vibes ...

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wigparty · 25/11/2008 11:45

Hoping your fishies are okay today RD. I never imagined I'd find it so distressing when they're sick

Mine are looking okay today (sick fish definitely spending less time head down at the top of the tank). I've bought some Melafix so will treat them today.

I've bookmarked that bioorb forum too, that will be really useful I'm sure.

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RubberDuck · 25/11/2008 14:05

That is good news

No sign of the guppy (the MIA fish) but guppies are notoriously fragile and not too big a shock.

Cherry barb is not looking good. Lying still on the bottom unless food is on offer then he perks up a bit (which I suppose is at least a good sign). I take more umbrage at the cherry barb being sick because they're hardy little sods, and this one I've had ages. When I brought him home he even survived his bag rolling around when I didn't secure it properly in the car (a serious case of do what I say not what I do... I now bring lots of bowls and towels to any fish buying trip and wedge them in the footwell far more securely!). He's also survived a few tank infections and survived last year when my heater went wrong and conked out. So he's NOT ALLOWED to die.

wigparty · 27/11/2008 12:00

RubberDuck, I hope you told him that in no uncertain terms , hoping he's okay ...

My 2 are still very active in the eating department but the one still goes up to the top head down when the feeding frenzy is over.

I tested the nitrate straight from the tap and it's actually between 20 and 40 . If I do weekly partial water changes do you think that should keep the levels under control more or less

I've been doing frequent partial water changes recently and have been adding a little bit of the swim bladder treatment to each new batch. (This makes an addition of treatment every day rather than every 4 days but I'm hoping this is the sensible option otherwise I'll just be removing it when I do the water change!).

I registered with the bioorb forum and the first post about goldies I read was a ticking off (in a nice way) about keeping 2 fantails in a tank of under 30 gallons. Since mine are in a tank of 30 litres and we can only contemplate going up to 60 litres in the near future I think I'd be a bit worried about posting!

Really, thanks so so much for all your advice, you've been such a help

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