Dog owners – is this normal?

[saturdaykid]

OK, please don't have a go at me for being a wimp, I know how pathetic this is going to sound, but I could really do with some advice! I'm finding my puppy really hard to deal with. He seriously NEVER stops. He only sleeps for about 30% of the day and the rest of the time, from 6.30am until about 8pm he's MANIC. He's only 10 weeks old at the mo, so far too little to be left alone at all, but he just wants to play (very energetically with lots of biting) ALL the time and I'm finding it utterly exhausting. He's not interested in kongs or chews, or playing fetch, only in tug of war or biting the crap out of me. It's a good job we have no kids yet (starting IVF next year, hence being on mnet) because he draws blood regularly. I'm training him and, bless him, he's very good, I give him lots of love and attention, I take him out for walks 3 times a day but he just never tires. I feel like my life is over. I work from home but never get any work done now. Will this get better??? I've seriously never met another puppy with so much energy and am starting to feel like I've made a massive mistake. Help!

good luck my collie cross(heniz 57 really!)
is 2 in december and still mad as a hatter, if he doesnt have 2 1hour walks a day he is unbearable. if there is not time for full walk luckily i have a neighbour with a brown lab who is just as mad as my dog!! so he goes in her garden to blow off some steam!!]

do adore him tho!! and is so good and calm around my 8 month old!!

Doodle2U I'd be really interested to see the research you mention.

saturdaykid, he doesn't need walks just now. The playing will be adequate.

Doodle the pack theory stuff is a bit outdated these days ...

Don't let him bite you. Think of it from his point of view - he is used to biting/playing with the rest of the litter, and they would bite each other.

So, you come along and he wants to play. Except that you aren't his 'equal' (unless you bite him back, and don't think you do!)

He needs to learn/understand the pack order. Dogs are pack animals and as long as they know where they are, then it's fine.

If he bites, you need to immediately remove him and say, 'no!' Don't hit him, but impinge on him that biting is not acceptable.

And reward him for good behavior. If he does something like weeing outside, then it's 'good boy! over exaggerated.

Well IAMP I don't know where the research could be found. I know it's been researched and the conclusions drawn were that tug of war encourages dominance, aggression, snatching and 'claiming' toys/other household items etc.

The advice is that you leave tug of war until your puppy has learnt his manners and you have full control of your dog, which means total obedience to your commands etc - then play tug of war but you must ALWAYS win and there should be a definitive stop to the game and the toy gets put away. The same toy should always be used, so that the dog knows he is allowed to play tofw with that toy but ONLY that toy.

As other people have suggested a change to Burns should help him be less hyper (worked with my springer). Ideally something with less than 20% protein.

Hello Saturdaykid

Sorry to hear you're still having so much trouble - we thought we'd cracked it with the sausages in the previous thread, didn't we?

Lots of good advice here already, and I would certainly second all the people who say you just have to stop the biting game (easier said than done, I know) because he thinks it's great but he's drawing blood!

It's late (for me!) and I may not have read all the thread properly but IME tug of war is fine and if you are really worried about dominance then just make sure you don't let him win.

Hope the advice on this thread helps and yes, they do get better in time.

Bella

Hi all, thanks for all your advice last night. Am def going to buy him a big bag of Burns and see if that helps (please god). Hi Bella29, yeah, sadly the sausages weren't the problem!

So, what do you think? if, when he starts his crazed-hound-of-hell phase around 5pm, which is when I'm heading for a nervous breakdown after having him all day, is it ok to just shut him in the back room for an hour or two with some toys (even though he's not that bothered by toys? Or is that counterproductive and will scar him for life/make him grow up into a hoodie? It just makes me feel guilty - you wouldn't chuck a kid in the back room and run away, would you?

I might chuck my kids in the back room but I'd leave Cbeebies looking after them!

Do you have a crate? If so, put him in there when you need to get on with stuff. The only issue I might have with putting him in the backroom on his own when he's used to so much of your attention, is he might start chewing and go on the rampage. If he's safely in his crate, he's warm, safe, feels secure and you can relax.

IAteMakkaPakka - come back and talk to me about the 'pack theory being outdated'. I've missed something bloody vital if that's the case and I'd like to understand that better. Ta.

Here's a link to a PDF which explains in more detail.

In short, pack theory relies on our assumption that dogs (who live in houses with humans, walk on leads, do tricks and receive their food in bowls at the same time each day) will behave in the same way as wolves (who live in the wild in groups, fend for themselves, have to hunt for food and rely strongly on natural selection or "survivial of the fittest"). It's absurd, when you think about it. Next door's obese minniature Dachshund which gets carried everywhere in a handbag and lives on salmon fillets and mange tout is pretty far removed from Canis lupis, isn't it?

A more modern approach is to try and see the world through a dog's eyes and understand the dog's motivation and needs, and teach a dog how to live harmoniously within a human family using gentle positive reinforcement. Dominance doesn't come into it (you can't call a dog dominant anyway, it's meaningless given that dominance is a relative concept).

I hate to set myself up for a flaming but I have worked with a fantastic, highly qualified behaviourist who gets brilliant results and she would agree 100% with what MakkaPakka says.

Oh, and to go back to what I originally wanted to say (before I am reduced to a wee pile of soot!):

Saturdaykid - have I read the thread correctly & are you saying you don't leave him alone at all? If so, then first of all grab yourself a halo, girl, and secondly, you're not doing either of you any favours.

Pup needs to learn it is okay to be alone and to amuse himself, rather than gnawing on his long suffering owner. Start with small periods & build up. He may howl/whine/threaten to call the RSPCA, whatever, but he will elarn and he will be a lot happier in the long run.

Also, how many meals a day does he get? i would give a large breed pup of this age 3 meals a day (cutting to 2 meals at 6 months) and having more frequent mealtimes might help settle him a bit.

HTH & sorry for rambling on....

elarn = learn, of course!

P.S. 3 - 4 meals actually since he's only 10 weeks!

nice to see pack theory countered at last, I always 'knew' it was bollocks

thanks!

what put me off was the one-size-fits-all approach, even timid dogs get subjected to rank reduction programmes making them even more confused and unhappy

some people have found it helpful though haven't they?

Blimey, bella29, we can't get into a row over dog training otherwise I'm flouncing and I never, EVER flounce!

I think that PDF is dead interesting and I agree with loads of it.

Fact remains though, whether it's emulating pack behaviour or not - a dog needs you to be in control and in charge. You need to have total control over the dog - see thousands of threads on Mumsnet where loss of control has resulted in some very pissed off parents

The pack theory, whether it's right or wrong, is useful in explaining to owners why we train in certain ways. So, for example, the dominance theory says You are the pack leader. Well, it might be incorrect in terms of the pack bit but you are the pup's leader - end of!

I need more time to read the PDF properly & respond accordingly but just a quick thanks to Makkapakka for taking the time & trouble to come back & post it!

I agree that we need to tailor training to the individual dog (and owner) and some elements of the different theories are applicable to some dogs, and some to others.

Definitely agree we need to be in control. Am going to print off the PDF (thanks Makka ) for bedtime reading. Interested to see it's dated 2007, as the behaviourist I talked about first told me her views in 2004!

I think the trouble is that pack theory has become very trendy and makes great TV, whereas boring old reward based training is not quite so (for want of a better word) sexy

Before getting our dog I read the book on how the Guide Dog people train their pups. Loads of good info but what really worked for me was the "settle down" bit of advice.

Now whether its because my westie is a lazy sod I don't know but whenever he would start to curl up looking to settle down I would tell him "settle down" and then when he was praise him.

It still works now, even when visitors have arrived and he tends to get a bit manic. It's like an off switch almost.

BTW, he is spoiled absolutely rotten, homecooked food and free run of the house but then he is brilliant and that ain't due to my training I can tell you .

Bloody hell, I returned to this thread with bated breath and a crash helmet - what a pleasant surprise!

Barbara Woodhouse and Jan "Dog Whisperer" Fennell have a lot to answer for. A lot in terms of dog suffering, IMO, when totally inappropriate and harsh "training" and rank reduction plans have been used.

I think what I hate most about the pack thing is that it assumes every dog's goal is to become "top dog" and dominate everyone and everything, when in fact a lot of problem behaviours result from anxiety and stress, and the dog actually needs to have their confidence boosted, not knocked further. I'm quite sure that misguided owners who try to dominate their dogs are often the ones whose confused and anxious dogs go on to bite. It makes me really sad.

Also an interesting thought: the best working dogs need to be able to think for themselves, and that requires confidence and trust between dog and owner - pack theory kicks that to the ground. In fact the best trainers (Anyone seen Mary Rae dancing with her collies? Frightfully twee but stunning bond between dog and owner) use positive reinforcement.

Hey Makka - you are so right!

Do you think we can put away the fire extinguisher yet?

Was thinking about you today & wondering how your Vizsla pup's doing.

Hope very much he's a bit easier to cope with

Hi bella29, and everyone who replied - thanks very much! He's not really much better unfortunately - I just cannot get him to stop biting. I really think he was taken from his litter too early, or that his mother didn't have a long enough chance to teach him social skills. When my pup hasn't seen me for an hour or so he just latches onto my arm and starts needing me with his paws, with a blissed out expression on his face, as if he really gets comfort from it. And then when he's playing he just constantly tries to nip and bite, it really is lucky we don't have kids yet because his teeth are SHARP. I've tried everything: Time out, walking away, shouting 'no', flicking water at him, giving him toys to chew instead, then praising him, but he just loves loves loves to bite and nip. Do they grow out of this? He isn't even teething yet, so I can only imagine it gets worse! Help! It's stressful because you can't play or cuddle him much because he just starts up with trying to savage your flesh! What am I doing wrong??!!