Poor practices from people selling puppies

[Lornacranium]

I wondered if anyone had any bad experiences regarding dog breeders.
I am due to see a litter today through Pets4homes and after initial excitement, I have some gut feelings of concern. Obviously I will have a better idea when I get there but I think I might be feeling unreasonably anxious.
Any advice would be really welcome. Thank you.

Wow. Totally convinced.

If everyone was as sure of themselves as you are we wouldn’t need Mumsnet would we?

What exactly is it thats worrying you ? I've been a breeder for many years ( recently jacked it in due to too many poor breeders and people would rather pay lower costs ) i post my health tests lots of pictures happy to answer any and all questions and ask the same of any potential buyer , they are also welcome in my home to see mam and pups in the home environment where they're raised etc .

What an absolute load of tosh! Most people have children and keep them. They have one generally, not multiple litters!
Yes, many many people adopt animals from abroad and are spreading the message on neutering and spaying, there are lots of charities abroad doing this and educating people in this. Many people also adopt but you cannot compare that to breeding dogs, it is completely different.
We have a problem in this country with people buying dogs and expecting others to pick up the pieces when things go wrong. We need to educate the irresponsible breeders and owners in this country before trying to educate everyone else … and it looks like we need to start with you!

Pets4homes - I came across obvious puppy farms which I reported but nothing was done. Was literally dragged away by friend as wanted to take all the puppies and the mum out of situation 😢

Do research before - once you are there it’s & smitten it’s hard to say no !

Red flags to look out for
Name / number doesn’t match advert

They can only sell so many litters a year without being registered breeders. So will use fake names / numbers which always happen to be a spouse / brother / sister Offering a discount to transact outside of site
Cleanliness - should have a puppy sweet / warm scent. Mum will be tired but clean If they don’t warning sign they have been brought from somewhere else
Open week to view and take home - property is an Airbnb

I did get my boy from a local breeder via Pets4homes from a registered breeder - thoroughly checked them out & wasn’t under pressure to make a decision

Hey op
Unfortunately there are lots of very irresponsible breeders out there, and the reason that it's been going on for so long is that once people see a puppy in a bad situation, they feel they have to get it out of there, so they buy it. This gives the breeders the opportunity to breed 10 more.

The right thing to do for those set on getting a puppy not a rescue, is to go and see the puppy at 4-5 weeks, with someone who will let you see it feeding from mum. You can see if mum seems happy and in good condition. If so put a deposit down and come back to get pup at 8 weeks. If you have any concerns at all walk away, and if you really think it's dodgy contact Trading Standards.

The reason for seeing them feed is that they are more likely to be in their usual enclosure then, and that some abusive dog breeders are so organised that they have stooge dogs set up which they pretend are the mother to lots of litters, while the real mothers are kept in filth.

Not all larger scale operations are awful, and patronising the better ones is a step towards helping the industry get better, (if you don't see the truth in that statement, then honestly you have no idea of the scale of this problem) but if you are seeing somewhere that obviously has a few dogs, ask to see their licence.

There's a lot of good advice here, but a few things I disagree with. Really, you should have absolutely no doubts about the breeder if you do your research.

I can't agree with the idea of buying from larger scale operations, simply because their practices are so abhorrent. Multiple stud dogs and brood bitches farmed out to "guardian" families, bitches being overbred and on consecutive seasons, puppies being neutered before sale, which is detrimental to bone health. All of these are red flags.

Pet breeders are a very mixed bag. It can be anything from an accidental mating of brother/sister or father/daughter, to a well planned litter with all health testing in place and a proven stud dog. Most will fall somewhere in between but are best left unless you are 100% sure it's legit.

For a purebred puppy I would always advise going to shows and speaking to people in your chosen breed. Contact the breed club for their breeder list and ask for personal recommendations. Try to go with established small scale show kennels that have a good reputation, even if it means going on a waiting list for a puppy. If they want to do a home check or ask you for references, that's a good sign.

If you want a rescue, try a specific breed rescue first rather than going to one of the large charities. Breed rescues are far better placed to understand the specific problem areas in a breed and are more likely to be honest about whether a particular dog will suit you. This is particularly important with the larger, stronger breeds that may have guarding tendencies - the generic charities are not always clued up enough on the territorial instincts that may only kick in several months after rehoming.

If you have any doubts whatsoever about a breeder or a litter, walk away. Don't think you are being kind to the puppy - this is how puppy farmers continue to churn out dogs for profit. They prey on people's nurturing instincts and sensitivities.

Always, always, only ever see puppies with Mum. That is first and foremost. With Mum and in their home. Anything other than that should be a massive red flag. Ask for pictures of them from birth, videos. If possible ask to meet Dad.

Dad should ideally be with a different owner, this is the problem. For a breeder to own both parents is highly unusual, even within showing circles. We have met the sires of some of our puppies on the show circuit, we chose some of our puppies on that basis, but there has only ever been the dam at the breeder's home when we viewed and collected our puppy. Mum & Dad together is a massive red flag in most circumstances.

Where do you think the dogs/ puppies come from?
A rescue dog can have multiple issues both in behaviour and medical. Let's face it, a huge % of dogs & puppies that end up in rescue are the ones that come from irresponsible breeders and impulse buyers in the first place. So no health tests, poor start in life and then discarded.

Dogs from reputable breeders rarely end up in conventional rescues because they either take them back, they go to specialist rescues and potential buyers are vetted to ensure return rate is minimal.

Many many dogs end up in rescues for various reasons, not all breeders take them back and there are hundreds of poor breeders, however people still buy them as they are cheap. The people that buy from breeders responsibly are in the minority … as are the supposed “good” breeders. Unlikely these sell via PAH though!!!

That rarely happens.

Good luck trying to meet the dad of some of the dogs I've used - they live in Italy 😂

Jeez! Are you ok?? 🤣

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/dog-advice/getting-dog/choosing-dog/buyer-advice

DO NOT BUY FROM PETS 4 HOMES!
BUYER BEWARE!
Crufts is coming up. Go to 'Discover Dogs' while there, speak to committed breeders for your chosen breed. Begin a relationship with the chosen breeder and bide your time until that perfect puppy becomes available. The relationship with the breeder will be lifelong and they will always be there to help you.

I’m actually pleasantly surprised at the mostly great advice on here 👏 here’s my experience. My fosterer bought a puppy from that site. She is such a sweet little thing, only 3yo now but health wise she’s had nothing but trouble from the beginning. She actually has to regularly have CPR done on her to get her breathing again, Hannah had to learn it 😳

Breeders so often don’t give a damn about the health of their puppies, despite the Oscar winning performance you will see, and she really regrets falling for the whole “you know what you’re getting from a breeder” line.

It’s just not true for people who use those kinds of sites. Decent breeders have a waiting list of home checked people before they even start, they have no breeding allowed contracts, the puppies will always cost four figures, they will take the dog back if it’s ever required… safe to say they’re few and far between.

We in rescue know the truth, because we are the ones who 99% of the time pick up the pieces 😞

And on a practical note, why do you think insuring a ‘pedigree’ dog is in the region of 40% higher? Insurance actuaries go on facts and claim history, and they KNOW they’ll be paying out much more for your puppy. It’s no fun having a poorly dog, just ask my fosterer 😞

Just been scammed on pets4homes by Atlanta Wiltshire, don’t go near this breeder, the advert says up to date with vaccinations but in reality an unvaccinated puppy. Outrageous, but pets4homes say not being vaccinated invalidates their guarantee in listing that puppy is vaccinated. In other words your better off not using site but if you do there is no part of a listing that can be trusted and pets4homes take no responsibility even where is a bare faced lie that’s absolutely clear and documented. This is despite payment being to pets4homes not the breeder, supposedly to give security. At least with a private sale you know risks and are wary. This site is worse than nothing as it actively gives false reassurance that lowers your guard. Lying scammer ex drug addict (google Atlanta Wilshire) breeders are bad enough, but this site is trading on trust and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Just out of interest, why is that? The other red flags people mention are self explanatory but I'm just wondering why it's a problem for a breeder to own both parents?

KC registered means nothing.

My fist dog came from a KC registered breeder who I thought was great on the surface but I was young and naive and she most definitely wasn’t.

She gave me a poorly puppy who’s parents shouldn’t even have been breeding due to inherited conditions and she couldn’t have cared less when I let her know the puppy was seriously ill.

@Aubrielle good breeders are trying to breed healthy dogs with diverse genetics. They will know all the pedigrees, I.e. Family trees from all of the dogs they own. They will probably mostly be breeding to maintain their line of dogs to show and as pets and so will want to add in genetics from males from all over the country.
So most breeders keep puppies that they have bred and don't buy in from elsewhere. So any male dog would be a very close relative of the breeding bitches and any resulting puppies would have a high chance of genetic diseases.

A breeder owning both parents suggests an accidental mating or a puppy farm.

If this isn’t a deliberately inflammatory post then what is wrong with you? Why are you choosing this route. Google why it’s a stupid idea at best.

That’s unfair, I assumed pets 4 homes was an eBay, Etsy, vinted or amazon 3rd party sellers for dogs - and the whole point was to provide security. Pets4homes make those claims but in practice, unlike all sites mentioned, they evade any responsibility. They took money via credit card which makes them liable under S.75, they cannot wriggle out of it, as confirmed by MBNA yesterday. You can’t prevent a crook using eBay, bu5 you expect eBay to refund you. And they do.