Troubled doggy - should he stay or should he go? please offer me advice!

[Nixz]

To cut a long story short.
We got a patterdale terrier x from a rehoming centre about 5 months ago.
In the house, he is brilliant. Very obediant, housetrained, loving - infact, everything you could ask for in a family pet.
Outside, he is a completely different dog.
There is no interaction or companionship with him, he is frantic.
He fights vey very viciously with other dogs, so has to be muzzled. In the first 2 or 3 weeks, he bit me twice, dp once and whilst he was trying to get to another dog, DD's friend ran over to him (we had him on a lead but it was before we muzzled him) and stood infront of him whilst he was trying to lunge at the other dog and he bit her.
He escapes constantly and fights with other dogs, even when we walk him and he see's another dog (Muzzled) he goes mad! He throws his body round and leaps up at me. He even tries to attack dogs when he is muzzled.
We have tried all different kinds of leads, we have had advice from RSPCA and DOGSTRUST and also had some sessions with a 1-1 dog trainer, he is on a low protein diet, muzzled etc. I cant practise the training the dog training as he is too strong or too out of control.
Its breaking my heart but I dont know what else to do, Im worried that if I rehome him he will just end up in another home, which I dont want but i cant see how he could be a family pet.
Has anyone had experience of a similar situation and are there any success stories?
Or do I have to face facts that I made a wrong decision when I rescued him

I have just had an email from my trainer, i contacted her earlier today and expressed some concern. As i said earlier, Im struggling to use the training methods as stitch is too strong and reckless. Im also worried about him bolting out of the door/gate at any opportunity etc etc.
Her reply was a bit sad tbh,in short, she she doesnt think he is an ideal family pet and thinks his problems are a bit too severe for us, especially with dd. Her email was very long, detailed and sympathetic, she is going to seek some further advice tomorrow from other sources and get back to me on some available options.
Guilt is an understatment right now.

um yeah, maybe leave the muzzle on!! Baskerville muzzles are great, we had one for our rottie, we stopped using it after a while as once we got to know him he didnt need it.

Could it be that he is rather too big for his boots and thinks he is the boss of the house? If he sees himself as pack leader he may take it upon himself to protect his pack, and also keep them in their place by biting. Maybe working on some dominance issues could help. Brushing is good for this, and just silly little things like not letting him go out of the door before you. Never upstairs where he can look down on you, things like that. He eats last etc. That might take the wind out of his sails a bit. Is there anyone mad kind enough to let you socialise your dog with theirs, muzzle on of course - it might get him used to other dogs and also, put him in his place. He does sound like a little fucker

chequers I agree, but the problem is, when people can't cope, they often cause behavioural problems. Our dog was a stray so battersea had no record of him, but he was in their behavioural rehab department for 6 months before we had him. He was extremely possesive of his food and toys and was just completely OTT, he would just go mental, running round and round, and playing with whatever got in his way - if that happened to be me, well then so be it......So i can just imagine the scenario with his owners, got a rottie puppy, which they roughed up and thought it was a great game, until they couldnt cope with 10 stone of juvenile deliquent with teeth and turfed him out. So he wasnt intrinsically a bad dog, but he had a bad start in life. Luckily his nature was actually that of a very loving and placid dog,once he had learnt to trust us and us him. I remember one day being with my face inches from his bowl when he was eating and i just stopped short thinking "fuck me" six months ago he would have eaten me and we had got to the point where it wasnt even an issue. So please OP give this little demon a chance if you can, he will pay you back in spades. You need some support of someone who knows what they are doing. Terriers are hard work, we got lucky with Bob but we had him from a pup, saw his mum etc. Give battersea behaviour line a call - they will advise. If you really feel you want to rehome him, and i wouldnt blame you actually, ring your local vets and get the number of your nearest patterdale rescue, they will be able to find the right home for him - in fact, give them a call anyway, because they may well have advice. I have to say, im stunned that people describe them as buggers as i have only ever met extremely placid patts and was lead to believe they were calmer than jack russells. But then im not sure calm and terrier work well in the same sentence

Message withdrawn

Don't beat yourself up over this. You have given him a good shot - i would be reluctant to send him back to the rescue centre he came from, because they clearly are not good with matching families with dogs and dogs with families, so he could end up on a bit of a revolving doorway. But do rememeber that actually, he is best off with someone who can cope with the behaviour. IE, either, they can exercise him where its not an issue and they dont have a problem with it, or they can get on top of it. If he is with owners who are upset by it, is no good for him in the long run.

It sounds like the lady you emailed is at least very honest, i would be led by what she says.

Our rescued JRT was very nervous when out near other dogs at first, terriers follow their own instincts. A dog behaviourist may help- good distraction/calming techniques should work. You are lucky your dog is a good house dog. Mine was kind of the opposite and we had to get him rehomed in the end. He lives on a small holding in a family with older children now and it was the hardest but ultimately the best decision we could have made.

We rehomed him through JRT rescue, by the way, not a dog's home- noway I'd have sent him back there. He was fostered there for 2 weeks in the lady's house then off to new home.

Lucyellensmum - At home, he is very very obediant, thats what makes this so hard.
The trainer says there are normally 3 types of dog aggression.
1)Protective - very rare and she doesnt think we have had him long enough for this type.
2)Dominance
3)Nervous - this is what she thinks he has as he displays some very strange behaviour when out.
He has obviously had something happen to him in his short past.

I do trust my dog trainer, She seems very confident and knowledgable and offers me lots of advice through calls and emails etc for no cost. She could keep suggesting extra sessions for extra money - she could bloody retire with the amount of sessions we'd end up paying her!!! But she doesnt, she has said from the start really that she doesnt hold out much hope for him - god its awful.

I would never send him back to where i got him from - ever!
Distraction and calming techniques dont work, he means business!

Anyway ladies - i really appreciate all of your help, you have been great!
I will let you all know what happens in the next few days x

It's very sad, I agree, but you have to decide what will ultimately be the best for you, your family, and the dog.
We felt awful, he'd come from a terrible home, our dog, we had him and loved him to bits for 7 years, but he just couldn't cope with the baby. I've had to hide all photos of him, it still makes me cry. You may be better off biting the bullet before you get too attached.

Nixz - I'm not sue I'm gping to say what you will want to here, but very sadly about 2 years ago I rescued a terrier that had aggressive behavioural problems but who calmed down dramatically with firm handling in the house. However, she never lost the memory or fear of whatever had happened to her, and in our vet's opinion she had been driven 'mad' by teasing. Anyway, I spoke to other rehoming centres about her behavious outside and was told the truth, which was that each centre admitted they would end up putting her to sleep: as Raystede put it' we are stuffed with terriers needing homes and the last one we are going to be able to rehome is one with aggressive tendencies. Anyway, I loved her so I persevered, even though I had a 2yr old dd at the time. Tragically one weekend, after owning her for a year, she went chasing sheep. The first time I got her back, the second time she brought the lamb down. The following morning I took her to the vet myself, as I knew that is euthanasia was goign to be the eventual outcome that I wanted her to know my love was there for her until the end, so that she would never be caged again.

I scattered her ashes on the hill above our house, and 2 years on I still ache for her. What I'm trying to say is that you know, in your heart of hearts, if this dog is safe or not, and it sounds as though your trained knows as well. I truly feel for you, but you MUST not feel guilty for having tried. Not every rescue has a happy ending, however much we try.

sorry for typos.....

Oh its awful, my trainer, dogs trust and the rspca all think he is 'too far gone' and that they couldnt rehome him as his aggressiveness is so severe.
I still feel that there must be a home for him somewhere.
I sympathise Salvolatile x

I didn't realise it was so bad, sorry. I think you have a tough decision to make.

Im just going to see what my trainer comes back with.

It really annoys me thta the rescue centre homed this dog to a family with young children.

At the rspca centre I worked in ,it was very difficult for a family with children under 10 to get any dog as most were unsuitable or an unknown entity so they couldn't be risked with children.

So sorry you're going through this emotional turmoil,don't feel guilty you've done your duty,it's the shelter you got him from who should be feeling guilty.

Oh I've just read through and it's a really really tough one for you Nixz.
I so hope it works out.
It's agonising for you.
Our friends rescue Patterdale came from a Patterdale site. They might find a home where someone is willing to give him a go and where he doesn't have contact with other dogs.

Message withdrawn

This may sound harsh but if he bites you he WILL bite your child. You cannot keep him as you are risking your childs life.

If it were my dog would hate to put him down (I don't believe in doing this) BUT I don't think you can rehome as you also wouldn't want to be responsible for the dog harming a child in future.

I would do exactly what you are doing - try to fix him, but at some point (soon) you may have to face the fact that he is too dangerous and have him put down.

PS to answer the question in your post - GO (no question) I just think you need to think hard about whether you might be putting another family/child at risk by trying to rehome

This is soo difficult, because as uncomfortable as it makes me i can appreciate what fym is saying. We thought we were going to have to rehome our rottie, surprise pregnancy and there was no way i could have stood for him to go back to kennels, he was basically on death row at battersea as he was proving difficult to rehome and was suffering from kennel stress and losing weight hand over fist. Sadly for us the decision was taken away by illness, so i have actually had to make the decision the OP is having to make. Saying that, Yazz was no longer agressive and i would have had no qualms about sending him to a no child household.

I am soo with the rescue centre for you nyx. What info did they give you about the dog?? When we took on yazz battersea were only able to give us info they had got from caring for him. But this was not just a case of sticking him in a kennel the rehab team worked with him intensively so they should take most of the credit for turning him around. The rest lies with him, and i bloody miss him Before we took him on we originally looked at a mad staffie x, we were given his full history that thankfully the previous owner was honest about, he had a tendancy to eat houses!! Chewed their staircase so he did - he wasnt for us, lovely as he was but hopefully Dave found an owner (stupid name for a dog!).

Phone the rescue centre and ask them for an HONEST history for stitch as this may well help anyone trying to help out in the future. I am sorry but i dont really have any further advice, its a tough decision you have to make and i don't envy you. But if it does turn out that this was his last chance, please don't feel guilty, you have given him a loving family home, something that he sounds like he hadn't experienced before.

The shelter have stated that they have no history on any of the dogs, this takes all the responsibility off them, i guess.

I took him out this morning and he wasnt bad, we met 2 dogs along the way, they were on the other side of the road quite a fair distance away. He was muzzled and on a short lead, I just held on tight to his collar and put all my weight on his back - it wasnt too bad, poor dd was scared but I had some control.

The scary thing was when I left dd at school and was walking home, a little girl went past with her mum, the girl was holding a doggy teddy bear and my dog thought it was real and started trying to jump up at her to get to the teddy. Luckily I had a good hold of him but the mum was cross and the little girl was a bit frightened by it.
I would have thought that scent played a huge part in his aggression, but i think sight is the key factor.

They are doing their dogs a great disservice by doing this, this means they are getting rehomed with people who cant manage certain behaviours.

Where abouts are you Nyx? Maybe we could take himi for a walk together? I totally understand why you are so uptight about him, but is there any wonder he is kicking off - muzzled (i know this is essential) short lead, you making a grab for him, etc etc - he must think those other dogs are a real threat for you to be behaving like that. Try to avoid situations where these stress triggers are going to happen, does he HAVE to come on the school run with you? Hed be happier at home. Im rubbish about walking my dog, if he has a walk three times a week, he is a happy lad , but he plays in the garden and is lots of fun, so he doenst show any desire to go out everyday, but i know i should. Next time you take him out, leave DD at home if you can - and RELAX, he is muzzled, he can't do any real damage (apart from to your arm sockets!) leave the lead lose, dont make a fuss, just if he kicks off, make him carry on walking, quickly in the other direction, he cant weigh that much, but just dont make a big thing of it, he might not be so defensive??

These are all ideas clutching at straws, i am starting to wonder if you need to rehome him, but from what you say, i dont think he needs to be put to slee, but that he might benefit from an owner who is better equiped to rise above his weirdness. Its tough when you have children, live in a built up area etc.

I'd love to meet the wee monster though, i am in Kent - let me know

lucyellensmum - i am in lancashire

Muzzled - if he isnt muzzled he will bite me or whoever has hold of his lead. I have only had a muzzle on him the last month so I am talking from experience. He bites me hard, both sets of teeth, top and bottom have broken the skin quite deeply, jeans torn etc. He is biting me because I am stopping him from getting to the dog/cat/horse.

I have to have him on a short lead, even when he is muzzled becuase then i can get hold of him. I crouch down, I try to stay as calm as possible and do not speak. If he was on a long lead, he would be lurching forward, jumping at me, strangling himself and basically just going wild. I can walk away from the other dogs with him on a lead but i usually come away with some form of injury! It must upset stitch too. I definately do not panic though.

I have an extending lead for him now, but the loose lead thing doesnt work, he strains and practically strangles himself, it doesnt matter what length the lead is.
Im taking him out for the short walk because my trainer has asked me to. To allow me to practise the training, short walks are what is going to enable me to eventually have some improvements on the longer, rural walks.

If he is in the garden, he digs by the gate, trying to get out. He is happy at home and i think he loves us lots, he is very obediant and shows no signs of dominance. His main aim when he is in the garden is to either get in the house or get out of the garden.
If he was off the lead with no muzzle, he would attack the dog and if anyone tried to intervent, they would get bit too.
Im not trying to be negative, i really appreciate your advice but I need to stress that this is not a dog who just barks or pulls on his lead - he is uncontrollable. He ends up in such an awful state when we get home from a walk, he is foaming at the mouth, panting really hard - he really chokes himself on his lead.
We have used Halti and chest harness and choke chains. The halti and chest harness, he snapped!!!!

Must say aswell that we have had to start (last few days) putting him on a chain in the garden as people cant get in because he is so desperate to get out!! My mum cut all her arm yesterday morning trying to get in and keep him in!
If he spots the gate maybe opening, he bolts and we dont get him back for hours.