Thoughts on this breeder/seller?

[alixxx1]

So me and my partner were really excited to get a dog. We have done plenty of research and found a breed of dog suited to our family.

We searched on pets4homes and found a seller with a reasonably priced litter of puppies available. At the time they were about 2/3 weeks old. The pictures on the ad were limited but the description stated the puppies will be vaccinated and microchipped, so me and my partner decided to go and have a look.

As soon as we set off the seller told us to come to a different address to which he had originally sent to us. It was the seller who was keen for us to visit in the first place. The address he gave us wasn't too far from the first address he had provided. When we arrived we stayed outside in the garden for covid reasons, this was my choice, so I didn't see inside the house. The seller brought out the two pups we were interested in and the mum. We chose the pup we wanted to give a forever home and we left. He didn't ask for a deposit at the time, he was happy to hold the dog for a few days. About 3-4 days later we sent our deposit across with promised updates regularly through the week.

Since we have put the deposit down I have not had a picture that is recent. I am constantly chasing the breeder for photos and what I receive is definitely not just taken, some have been screenshot from his Facebook. He says he will send the updates on certain days of the week, which is strange, I would have thought if his pet just had a litter of puppies, he'd be around them every day so could send them whenever. I don't expect daily updates but I expect something in a week. Anyway we don't receive updates even on the days promised.

My partner rang him today, he doesn't know my partners number, and he answered the phone. Baring in mind this shows he is ignoring my messages. He said he had sent an update and I must not have received it. He then said he would send one today. Nothing has come through, I've been messaging him and nothing.

He's reposted his advert on pets4homes again, again with limited pictures but different ones this time but the ad post is still the same.

I feel like he's just taken off with our money and even if he hasn't, I was hoping for communication and updates for peace of mind. We have a name for the dog and wanted him to maybe call the dog by that name etc. Idk, the nice things.

Am I over worrying? Or does anyone else find this strange? What could be going on? I'm worried even if we get the dog it might not be healthy. I don't trust he is looking after the dogs properly as he's showing no interest in me. It's a total change to how he was when I enquired and visited the pup.

I'm getting the impression he himself isn't the breeder...

I've asked for my deposit back just now although I expect it's long gone and I'll get ignored. But he didn't state it is non refundable? I'm feeling really fed up and stressed about this now.

Sounds dodgy to me I'm afraid. Lots of red flags for puppy farming. Not just the flakiness about sending updates as breeders like any other people can be busy, lazy or non tech savvy people, although this could also be a sign that the puppies aren't in fact being raised by him at home but in kennels/puppy farm environment which he doesn't want you seeing. But also the sudden change of address, repeated advertising on pets4homes (not a site favoured by responsible breeders on the whole), the lack of a waiting list (most good breeders won't have a litter they don't already have homes lined up for before they are even conceived, yes on occasion people drop out or the litter is exceptionally large so puppies become available at slightly shorter notice, but the whole litter being up for sale sounds odd) and the speed with which it seems to have moved from seeing an advert to meeting the pups to putting a deposit down sounds very much like he cares more about the money than the puppies (unless there are relevant details you've left off).

Have you had information about the breed-relevant health tests done on Mum and Dad (particularly important in breeds or cross breeds with known serious health issues e.g. flat face dogs), have you seen pictures of Dad and had an explanation why that particular stud was chosen (not just 'my mate owns him' or similar, I'd want an explanation that makes sense in terms of health, temperament, complimenting the bitch or ironing out any flaws in her etc). Do you know how many previous litters the bitch has had and have you seen pictures/info on previous puppies, testimonials from their owners etc? Did he quiz you on your circumstances and suitability to have a dog before letting you come and choose a pup, whether you work/are at home most of the day, any children or other pets at home? Does he have contracts in place re non-breeding from the pups and what will happen if you need to return pup for any reason? If it's a pedigree litter will it be KC registered? These things are really the minimum standard I'd expect from a responsible breeder, really good ones would probably go above and beyond even that in various ways...

When you saw the puppies, are you sure the bitch you saw was their real Mum, did she seem interested in them, interacting with them? It's very common for puppy farmers to use a 'stunt bitch' in place of the real mum of the puppies to prevent buyers seeing the real conditions she's kept in. A mum of such young puppies should have been really suspicious/protective around strangers and would have had a slack belly and full teats, more information here www.cariadcampaign.co.uk/puppy-farming-puppy-dealing/

Basically sad as it is, I think unless you have satisfactory answers to all the above I'd walk away from this puppy and accept your deposit is gone. That's annoying but nothing in the scale of the vets bills and/or behaviourist/training costs as well as the emotional impact if you end up with a sick or badly raised puppy from a puppy farm (there are some horrific stories online). Plus by buying a puppy from this kind of dodgy set-up you are encouraging the breeder to continue with their bad practice.

I would head over to the doghouse board and search there, there are very regular threads with good advice on how to identify a responsible breeder, what sites to look on etc. If it's a particular breed you want you may even find someone who can recommend (although don't post saying you want a crossbreed without your hard hat on ). The common theme is that you need to be prepared to wait though, any breeder who has puppies immediately available is likely to be suspicious...

Well it screams puppy farm.

Well yes he does sound dodgy but we’re waiting for our puppy to be old enough to come home and we haven’t been texting all the time to ask for updates and pictures. We’ve messaged twice with a few questions which he told us was fine and that’s it oh and he’s sent us a video but that was his choice.

@maxelly thank you for being so informative. So just an update I asked for my deposit back for the lack of updates and the breeder responded - texting differently (I assume someone else wrote it out for him). He apologised and said he hadn't updated due to not being 'tech savvy' and his wife must have missed me off the list.

He promised regular updates from them on. I have had some updates in videos and I can see they are in a house and I can hear other puppies. I've asked to see a video with mum and other pups to see where they are sleeping as we could only view in the garden due to covid. I felt a bit reassured by this point.

Anyhow I just asked a couple more questions today as the dogs aren't kc registered. I just asked if the dogs would be health checked and he said yes, so i asked for a certificate. He said I can speak to a vet about their health when I bring the dog home. Anyway I said what about mum and dads health checks and he responded with my dogs are healthy and if you want you can have a 50% deposit back. I responded saying that I didn't feel I was being unreasonable and any reputable breeder would understand. I have since not had a response.

Do you still think it is likely a puppy farm or just a d*head breeder?

I also asked if the pups were on food yet and he said no they'll be on food at 8 weeks old. From research I thought this was meant to be earlier but I am unsure.

I get the impression he isn't the breeder as he can only update on certain days so when he texts he says 'next update is Friday' and then I'll get a video of the pup himself on the sofa or on the floor and can hear the other pups in the background.

Regardless of what type of breeder they are, they should not be surprised that you have asked questions about the puppies parents.
We bought privately as a poodle cross ( hated here on mumsnet) but owner was delighted to answer any questions, puppies all were checked out at the vets and regular pictures and videos posted of them on the FB group.Prior to covid there were still regular meet ups with as many of the litter could make it, and she only had two litters from her bitch as family dog so concerned about her health.

In this situation I'd back out, if you can get 50% of the deposit back even better. Pups could be perfectly healthy but too many red flags to proceed and potentially get landed with hefty vet bills.

Solid food at 8 weeks?! I'm not an expert, but usually I thought you'd start weeks earlier! We bought a puppy who wasn't KC registered off a friend of my daughter's teacher (who has previously had her own dogs from the same breeder). All puppies came vet-checked and vaccinated. She would also provide any video updates whenever we asked (we tried not to bother her too often) but we could see mum and other puppies running around in the background. Also, are puppies that young even allowed on sofas?! It's all a bit weird to be honest OP.

I don't know what your deposit was or your financial situation but do not buy this dog whether you get any money back or not.

Hmm well if you are confident the puppies are def being raised in a home for me that puts them into dodgy backyard territory rather than puppy farming (others might disagree) but that's def no guarantee of a healthy, happy puppy. The response on the health checks is kind of classic backyard breeder territory, a 'vet check' of the puppies or even a 'health check' of mum and Dad is often what amateur/'hobby' breeders advertise their dogs as coming with, which can give a sense of reassurance, but it really isn't worth that much. All a vet can do is confirm the dog is not currently sick/in pain at that moment in time (so free from parasites and some of the more nasty infectious diseases that can easily spread in kennels) but your concern is not really about them being OK there and then as a young puppy where (outside of really bad puppy farming practice where horrible diseases spread) the vast majority will 'pass' the health check. Obviously vets aren't sightseers and can't predict whether or not the dog will get sick in the future, depending on the breed you need xrays and/or genetic tests to be assured (and even then some currently popular breeds are still a massive risk). Many serious health problems don't become apparent until they are fully grown or even 5 years old, by which time obviously there's no come back on the breeder and you're already attached to the dog etc.

Maybe I might take the risk if it was a low-risk breed and all the other signs from the breeder were good (previous healthy litters have reached adulthood with no issues, good testimonials from other customers, carefully considered matings from proven healthy parents etc) but TBH I think I'd walk away from this one, keep at him re the deposit, even if you lose 50% (and from his responses I'd be surprised if he budged, after all it's not as if he's actively lied to you about the health checks, plenty of people do ignorantly buy a pup on the basis of a 'vet check', and I think you'll have a hard time proving whether he really is the breeder or not). I think you'll save money and heartache in the long run, even with puppy prices as they are right now that's probably still only one big vet bill's worth...

Also not KC registered if they are a pedigree is a pretty solid indication Mum has had more than 3 litters as really there's very little reason not to register the puppies if it's a recognized breed (it isn't expensive to just register a litter as opposed to becoming an 'accredited' breeder and doesn't involve many/any checks beyond submitting the names/papers of the parents). However the KC will only allow 3 litters per bitch (for welfare reasons) so dodgy/backyard breeders will register the first litters and then go on breeding from the poor animal until she can't cope any more . Another reason not to support this breeder.

Obviously if it's a cross or made up breed then they can't be KC registered anyway so doesn't apply...

By health tested, he means got poked at the vets and they said they were fine or haven't been to the vets and by proxy are deemed 'healthy'. Wouldnt touch with a barge pole, the address could be a safety thing in fairness in not giving actual address until last minute but raises flag regardless for me. Hes getting touchy about you asking questions. I had an accidental x breed litter many moons ago and a lady asked me to register them so she could show or stud the puppy she chose, i had to re point out they were x breeds and this wasnt possible. She was trying to find a way out of the sale because shed found something else last minute and wanted her deposit back. I refused and told her good luck. He had a lovely home in the end.

As soon as I asked him questions he was just offering a 50% deposit back which I cannot understand why my questions were inconveniencing him so much.
We will accept our 50% deposit back.

The dog is a pedigree. So I am now skeptical why they are not kc registered. We have found a kc registered breeder. She's provided a lot of information and sent videos with the mum and siblings and the dogs look thriving. I get a better feel all round. Is there any questions I should ask this breeder instead? There is only one pup for sale in the litter.

Glad you've walked away from this one. You can report dodgy sounding greeders like this to trading standards. There's way too many dodgy sellers and scam artists out there, preying on the insane demand for puppies right now.

I wish more people would walk away from these dodgy people :(

For the new breeder - has she given you the health test results (not checks, tests) relevant for that particular breed i.e. eyes, hip scores etc. There will be lots of details online for your chosen breed of what health tests are needed.

A good breeder will be proud to show you excellent health test results.