another dead goldfish - please help

[3littlefrogs]

I have done everything by the book - oxygenating plant, dechlorinated water,test kit, proper food, no overfeeding, occasional pea for them to nibble. They seem to last about 3 weeks and then get a fungal infection. I treated this one with Gold - disease safe, straight away, isolated it etc.

This is the second one that has died. I must be doing something wrong, but I can't think what. I have an electric filter, and prepared the tank 2 weeks before putting the fish in, as instructed by man in shop.

Nitrite levels have always been fine. The only thing is I think my water is a bit hard - could that be enough to kill the fish?

Sorry this is so long. I would be grateful for any advice. Dd (8) is going to be so upset. Maybe I should have let her have a hamster?

What are your readings for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH - that might give us a clue what's going on.

If the bacteria in your tank hasn't built up first then there won't be any nitrite yet, just building up of ammonia which can be highly toxic to fish. Also, how big is the tank? Ideally goldfish need around 10 gallons (around 38L) each as they are very messy and grow fairly big!

The other alternative is that the fish shop you're getting them from isn't as good quality as it might be. What's the condition of the fish in the shop like? Do you ever see any dead fish in the tanks? Do you know how long they keep them after they're delivered before they're put on for sale?

Anyway, I know all that is hard to take in at once. Post your test results and we can start from there

Thanks Georgina

How do I test for ammonia? I don't think there is a test for that on my test strip. I have done a 25% water change twice in the 3 weeks - maybe I shouldn't have done that? I will post the test results asap - I am getting everyone off to school just now. I have to do a 15 mile round trip to buy pet stuff, so all advice is much appreciated.

Right. First thing, you do need some ammonia test strips (really really helpful especially in the early days). Or you can use the test tubes and chemicals - I use the API test kit - looks scary but is more accurate and much more economical in the long run. Had mine almost a year now and nowhere near to running out.

Do you understand how the cycle works? I'll try and explain it anyway, and if I make a mess of it I'll try and find somewhere on the web that explains it better.

Basically, in a mature tank, your fish waste is ammonia. Ammonia is highly toxic to fish in even the smallest of doses. The good bacteria in your tank (in the gravel, in the filter etc) converts that ammonia to nitrite. Nitrite is not quite as bad as ammonia but still toxic in small doses. Then some more friendly bacteria converts that to nitrate which is still toxic in higher doses but nowhere near as bad as ammonia or nitrite. You remove nitrate by doing your water changes.

With me so far?

Basically, the goal you are aiming for is Ammonia to be at 0ppm, Nitrite to be at 0ppm and Nitrate to be under 20ppm. Any time any of those values are over that, you need to do a partial water change.

Now in a mature tank, the bacteria is already in place, time between water changes are going to be small. In a new tank, no bacteria has built up yet to convert the ammonia into anything less toxic, so without water changes that's building up and up and killing your fish.

Will post more - need to do school run myself!

DOH ... that should read: in a mature tank time between water changes are going to be further apart. Sorry!

Right. I hope you're still with me. Bombard me with questions if anything doesn't make sense.

So, you have a tank, you want fish in it. How do you get it to the nice readings of 0,0,20 that you want? You can add friendly bacteria to your tank to help things get moving faster - think of it as yakult for fish (I use Stress Zyme - I'm not an API rep, honest - it is a good idea to use the same brand for everything you put in the tank: plant food, declorinator, bacteria - because sometimes different brands react strangely with each other).

The only problem is, if there's no waste in there for the bacteria to feed on, it'll just die away and you'll be no better off. This is the problem with setting up a tank 2 weeks before you buy your fish but doing nothing else with it - nothing's happening in there to mature your tank.

What you need is to 'cycle' the tank (the cycle being referred to here is to get the bacteria doing the full cycle of ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate). There are two ways of doing this and it's all down to personal preference really, the end result is the same.

The first way is to fishless cycle. So before you buy any fish, you set up your tank, stick some good bacteria in. However, you now need to feed the bacteria.

If you use a fishing net (or even an old pair of tights cut off to a manageable size), put a couple of flakes of fish food in daily. The net helps keep things tidy for later. It'll all rot in there (and probably start to smell, sorry) and you keep an eye on daily test results. For a while you'll see ammonia steadily rising, then it'll drop while the nitrite rises. Then just at the point where you think it's DEFINITELY not working and it was all a complete waste of time, the tank is all green and disgusting, the nitrite will suddenly drop leaving high levels of nitrate.

You can then give the tank a good clean, remove the net and rotting food, do a big water change, double check the levels are still safe and buy your fish.

Pros: no harm to any fish while you're cycling, only one big water change at the end.

Cons: fairly disheartening as nothing nice to look at, the tank gets scummy and (dare I say it) gets a bit whiffy too.

Or you can cycle with fish. This time you set up your tank, bung in the bacteria and plonk a fish in straight away. This time though, you have a live thing in there producing the waste and as such you are going to have to be really careful. Test daily without fail - if those numbers are anything above 0,0,20 then do a partial water change. You will probably be doing daily water changes for a good while. Again you should see ammonia showing first, then nitrite, then after an interminable wait while your hands are all peeling from constantly being in water, ammonia and nitrite will disappear and nitrate will start to show. Then the water changes will become less frequent (depending on size of tank and type of fish - unfortunately goldfish are pretty messy creatures).

If adding more fish (depends on your tank size - remember one goldfish per 10 gallons if you can), then only add more after the tank has cycled and then you might see another mini cycle as the bacteria readjusts to the increased amount of waste.

Pros: you get to enjoy a fish while you're cycling the tank.
Cons: it can be really quite stressful fitting in all those water changes.

Before you start wishing you'd chosen a hamster after all, I promise fish keeping is really rewarding once you've got over that first hump

To give you an idea, my coldwater fishless cycle took around a month in total. I'd imagine cycling with fish would take the same amount of time.

If any of that is confusing, tell me and I'll explain it better or find someone who can explain it better.

You have another option - you can always stick a 10 quid heater in there and go tropical. You can stock more tropical fish as they're generally slimmer and produce less waste. The cycling in warmer water is generally quicker too. It's a myth that tropical fish are harder to keep than goldfish (I went tropical in the end).

Thanks so much for all that - why don't the people who sell the fish tell you all this?
Where do I get the bacteria to put in the tank?
With regard to cycling with the fish - I probably should have been doing more frequent partial changes. There is one fish in the tank - he isn't looking too well - do i do a partial water change, or rescue him and put him into another container of dechlorinated water mixed with some tank water? What do i do about the antifungal medicine concentration in the tank - he has a few white spots on his tail ATM.
If I leave the current tank as it is for a few weeks, minus fish - presumably it will go through the fishless cycle as you described?

Incidentally, I did get a book out of the library but it didn't explain about the tank cycling nearly as well and as clearly as you have!!!

I am off to test the water now.

Actually - fish 2 is looking reasonably lively and has eaten his breakfast. I have just done a partial water change - just one litre out of the 16 litre tank - a sort of holding operation till you get back from school! I have just tested the water:-

pH 8
KH 6
GH 16+ That was what worried me a bit.
NO3 100 - that has gone up
NO2 10 also up a little bit.

Will have to see where I can get an ammonia test kit. I am supposed to be at work now - have to go in in a minute, then straight to school at 3.30 and then 2 consecutive tennis lessons - no time to do the 15 mile trip today, the local pet shop doesn't stock any sort of test kit - only food and medication for diseases.

do you think fish2 will be ok till tomorrow? - i might be able to go to the garden/pond centre after school pick up - they close at 5pm.

I have to acknowledge that there was another lovely lady who gave me advice a while ago - foolishly I didn't keep a note of what she said, and obviously remembered it incorrectly. I am cross with myself.

One more question:
I didn't buy a light for the tank - now that the evenings are darker, do you think the fish are not getting enough light?

hi 3LF,
It might have been me that spoke to you before - Georgina and I seem to be the resident fish keepers on here.
First, it seems like your tank is still cycling (ie building up the bacteria). Even without an ammonia reading, I can tell from the NO2 (nitrite) level of 10. (is this reading in ppm or mg/l?)This is high and toxic to fish. NO3 of 100 (nitrate)is high, but nitrate is not as toxic to fish.
First thing to do is change 25% of the water and test again. You need to get that NO2 reading down - about 0.5 will be OK to keep the tank cycling but not poison goldie.
You can't fishless cycle now, unless your remaining fish dies

I have a spare ammonia test I can post out to you if you send me your address - my email is dleafe at hot mail dot co dot uk.

also ask here for help. They are a good bunch and helped me loads when I started keeping fish.

fish don't need light - only if you are growing plants.
Bacteria to cycle tank - after a month, you will have some in there already from fish poo.
White spots on tail - does it look fluffy or like tiny grains of salt? If like salt, he needs whitespot treatment (not anti-fungal)Also, any medicine in the tank will lower the oxygen in the water - is he gasping at the surface? Can you set the filter to make ripples at the surface? This will oxygenate the water.

I am treating with GOLD disease safe it says it cures most goldfish illness including fungal and bacterial. Have just done a 25%change. Fish definitely looks better than yesterday - not gasping - swimming around rooting in gravel, has gobbled up his food. the filter bubbles air through the water - constant stream of bubbles. Absolutely have to go to work now or will get sacked - (only allowed to do a certain amount "from home" - posting recorded delivery stuff, buying stamps, paying in to bank etc). i have found another local pet shop via google - will phone them and see if can pick up a test kit today - if not, I will email you - thanks so much.

Oh lordie me - sorry to butt in but.....

We got two goldfish for dd for her birthday last month - I guess we have had then about 6 weeks now - and I had no idea about all this mullarkey !

I think I have been doing a very bad thing ! We are using the water treatment chemicals that came in the tank kit - but I have been totally emptyng and scrubbing out the tank and gravel every weekend ! It has been getting absolutely gopping in 10 days - so I've had to - or so i thought !

We only have plastic plants too - should I get real ones ? But my sil told me they make the tank go all algal !!

Help !!

Am back from toddler group - sorry! Right, have to get ds2 his lunch and in bed then I'll be back!!

Right, back at the computer

"why don't the people who sell the fish tell you all this?"

I don't know but it really does make me cross sometimes. If it's any consolation, I pretty much screwed it up with my goldfish too - died within three weeks. I remember having goldfish as a kid and my mother scrubbing the tank out with soapy water each week No wonder they never lasted long. A goldfish has a normal lifespan of about 10 years and the oldest known one I think was about 40.

"Where do I get the bacteria to put in the tank?"

A good pet/fish shop will sell it (and even many bad ones ) - it comes in a bottle and you just measure some out. I bung about 5ml of API Stress Zyme in once a week ish (although follow the instructions on the bottle - I think it recommends more frequently for the first few doses).

"There is one fish in the tank - he isn't looking too well"

Leave him in there and go for a cycle with fish - if you put him in another container, the other container will have to cycle so there's no real gain. Gingerbear has given some fab advice about medication. I would tend to avoid the "fixes everything" style medication as I haven't had very good results with it. For fungal infections and general health tonic I tend to use Melafix - it's expensive but it lasts ages, it's basically tea tree oil and helps them repair naturally. I quite often bung some in when I have new fish just in case. It also can be used in combination with just about any other medication so it's always worth chucking in on a "just in case" basis.

For white spot, just about the best I've found is the King British white spot medication. (However, I don't think I can use it anymore as I think it can damage snails - I need to look that up at some point, but it's something to be aware of if you ever diversify!)

As with any medications, if you have carbon in your filter you MUST remove it before adding the medication otherwise it'll just strip it back out the water doing no good whatsoever.

Fish2 (love the catchy name ) - I would do a partial water change today, treat with what you've got as a holding pattern. If you choose a different medication at the pet shop tomorrow then it might be worth putting the carbon (if you have it in your filter) back in the morning to take the old medication out, do another partial water change, taking the carbon back out again then medicating with the new stuff.

No light should be fine - makes the tank look prettier though You'll find the goldfish oxygenator weed plant grows like wildfire regardless of lighting conditions

Ooo good recommend on the site, Gingerbear - I can also recommend The Unofficial Biorb Forum - technically serves biorb owners (a certain type of fish tank) but they are sooo friendly, one of the most helpful bunch I've found and a good proportion on there aren't biorb owners but have gone on to use other tanks so you'd be more than welcome. They also have a fab collection of links so it really is worth at least a lurk.

(I'm so sorry I'm spamming this thread - I just think it makes it easier to read if I break it into chunks!)

scatterbrain: I remember doing the exact same thing as a kid - rinsing the gravel under the tap in a sieve . It's actually one of the worse things you can do as the chlorine will kill off all the good bacteria that's built up there.

You don't mention if you have a filter in there, but anyway some tips for cleaning and being bacteria-friendly

DO have a good stir in the gravel when you are cleaning to get up the crud. Goldfish generate a lot of crud - when crud rots, it produces ammonia etc etc. Don't however scrub the gravel as you're likely to kill off the bacteria in your enthusiasm. I don't know how deep your tank is but I use one of these hand syphon things to get the water out into the bucket for water changes and you can have a really good footle in the gravel while you do it.

DO have a good wipe around the tank to remove algae. It doesn't do any harm, but it does look unsightly. Having real plants can help reduce algae as they fight for the same nutrients in the tank. A really easy plant that survives lots of abuse is a Moss Ball - you don't even have to worry about its root system, it just rolls around on the bottom (hey, and if your fish get bored they can play football - okay, that last bit is a joke). Another thing that eats algae for breakfast saving you lots of boring scrubbing is .... A SNAIL! (I love my snail). Very minimal fuss - just needs some calcium drops in daily to strengthen its shell, algae pellets if you ever run out of the stuff covering your tank and the occasional piece of cucumber.

DO cut the filter sponge in half (if you have one) and only replace half at a time in the early days. This way the bacteria that's built up in the sponge can cross colonate (sp?) the new bit of sponge)

DO use partial water changes rather than full ones. Try and get the water the same temperature as the water already in there if you can - changes of a degree or more can really stress out your fish. As you have coldwater fish, I suggest making up the water in advance and letting it sit for a few hours until it's reached the same temperature (test with your wrist if it feels roughly the same it probably is). For tropical I use a thermometer and make up some of the water via a kettle, mixing with cold until I get the right temp.

DO dechlorinate any water that goes near your tank. Chlorine not only harms fish, it kills off your friendly bacteria.

DON'T panic, enjoy your fish

(I'm sorry, I came over all doodle do there)

Another thought - real plants are self-cleaning My plastic plants always looked so grubby after a few days.

A good way to clean ornaments is to rub them over with an algae cloth in some of the old tank water you've just taken out. (psst... snails clean ornaments too!)

The bacteria in a bottle is rubbish Georgina, on TFC they refer to it as 'snake oil' - a ruse to make money by the pet shops. The bacteria in them is the wrong type, most likely dead, and the stuff contributes nothing to the growth of bacteria in the tank.
Fishless cycles start off with a squeeze of filter sponge or gravel/ornament from an established tank (not always easy), and dosing pure 10% strength household ammonia from Boots over a period of 2 weeks and testing lots during the cycling. When the ammonia and nitrite levels have dropped to zero (could be up to a month depending on water temp) then you do a huge water change and bung in all your fish on the same day before the bacteria that has colonised the filter dies off.

Not meaning to start an argument about this, but the cyclemeister on TFC (a poster called Rocker) has cycled dozens of tanks this way.

No that's the best way, but less easy for the beginner to get hold of. Fish flakes and stress zyme did the job for me

Now, the instant cycle stuff you can get from the states... now that IS snake oil and I'd agree with you there

Incidentally, 3LF on consideration I agree with Gingerbear that with nitrite and nitrate amounts going up in your tank you've almost certainly got bacteria in there now - it's just a case of waiting out the end of the cycle with minimal stress to Fish2 (which hopefully isn't too far off).

...got ENOUGH bacteria in there now, that should read.

Wow - thanks for all the advice ladies !!

Has just cost me £36 !!! Blimey - fish were only £2 each ! Hope they appreciate this !

Can I just ask - should I be needing to do a complete water change every 10 days - or should the tank start to be self cleaning if I get all this stuff right ?

Just partial water changes - it's best to be guided by the test kit to be honest - you'll soon see a pattern. In practice for my tropical 30L I end up doing between 10-20% water changes weekly and really I probably could get away with bi-weekly now (I really must test again this weekend - I've got out of the habit unless something is wrong!). Then again tropical fish tend to poo less .

And I know the feeling about spending loads on them!! It started out as such a cheap hobby