Dogs Fighting, Help Please? Minimu? Vets?

[midori1999]

Ok, am at my wits end and in all my years of dog owning have never had this before, but I have never had a 'boy dog' at the same time as other dogs...

All hell has broken loose over the last couple of weeks. Plus, I have just found out I am pregnant again, so can't really afford to take any risks. However, I am determined to find a solution that involves keeping all the dogs, whatever that may be.

It started with our two bitches, Mum, 5 and her 2 1/2 year old daughter fighting. It started over our rescue puppy, a currently un-neutered boy, 9 months. Daughter was telling puppy off, Mum objected and told daughter off. Daughter has always backed down to Mum, but the first time they fought, after the usual appeasement signs from daughter and Mum not backing down, a fight started. I managed to seperate the girls and get one outside. (I was on my own) All together again ten minutes later, no problems.

Week later, daughter in season, so she is seperated from the others due to un-neutered boy dog. After half a day I let Mum out in the garden to be with daughter so she had company for a bit and a fight broke out immediately. Currently, Mum and daughter will fight on sight.

Now, Mum has decided to fight with the pup. He does annoy the other dogs a bit and is the 'bound in and annoy the hell out of them' type (staff x lab x collie ish) He is also a bit confrontational with other dogs at times, and can be nervous, we assume due to his start. (from pound, not socialised at all until 14 weeks, roughly treated by several humans including 'kicked around the house' for mouthing a child )

The fighting has resulted in minor injuries to all three dogs (dog no. 4 keeps out of it all) but Mum has some quite deep puncture wounds and has seen a vet for these and a general check up. My husband has also been bitten twice whilst trying to seperate the dogs. (his own faulty, he got his hands in the way!) All the girls are very, very well socialised, usually very good with even the most difficult/undersocialised of dogs and no previou temprement problems.

We discussed spaying Mum with the vet and I think we will do this as we were planning another litter from her and then to spay her, but obviously in light of this a second litter won't be happening, so we may as well spay her now. I also discussed neutering boy puppy with the vet. However, I am concerned about it making his nervousness worse. He does occasionally become defensive when out on his lead, but this is improving all the time now I can walk him myself. (previously husband doing it due to pregnancy/medical problems) I discussed Tardak with the vet and understand this works for six weeks, but my vet said it can have a sedative affect too, so may not give a true picture of what neutering would do.

We do have a behaviourist (good one we hope, obedience/agility judge and APDT listed) coming out Weds morning. I have also been using DAP spray in the meantime as unable to get a plug in (Not sure if it is even safe for pregnant women though?) and walking the dogs half to death in an attempt to get them so tired they just sleep all day.

I'm not really even sure why I am posting, more to de-stress and get it all out as much as anything I suppose. Any thoughts at all?

Midori congratulations!

The dog situation is a frustrating one but you of course are doing the right thing and getting in a behaviourist. Can I just play devils advocate and suggest that some ADPT are more trainers than behaviourists so maybe the APBC might help as well.

Not seeing the situation it is hard to give advice but I to would be cautious of spaying or neutering. At reading you post I may consider spaying the younger goldie but again I wasn't there.

Sometimes however experienced you are with dogs there are situations that can not be sorted and only restrained and it is no indication of anything other than a certain combination of dogs.

Do let me know what the behaviourist says and good luck.

Thanks Minimu. I am cautious of spaying or neutering, not least as I have said myself enough times, it is not a training aid...

I get what you're saying about spaying the younger Goldie and I think I undestand your reasons or suggesting spaying her and not Mum. The problem being Mum is now having phantoms after each season, so there are obvious health benefits to having her spayed anyway and I don't want to end up in the position where she needs an emergency spay due to pyo. Obviously currently that can't be my main concern though, but it's a difficult one.

I also get what you're saying re behaviourists and trainers. The chap's website mentions he does behaviour work and certainly says all the right things re reward based training, not advocating pack/dominance theory etc but he probably is more training based. Sadly, as we are in Northern Ireland, there are only two people listed on the APBT site and none of the APBC, so choice is limited. He sounded the best of the two when I spoke to him. I guess we'll have to see how it goes. I have my own ideas about what is going on, which may be right or wrong.

I would possibly have the option of having one of the dogs to go and stay with a friend and her dog for six weeks. We initially considered this as DH will be away and I obviously cannot seperate two fighting dogs myself easily or reliably. I wonder if spaying one then them having a break out of the house and being reintroduced post spay might help, or would that generally make things worse? I am only too aware that bitches can bear serious grudges and never be able to be kept together again. If it comes ot that, it is doable for us, but obviously not desirable.

I know you can't really advise without seeing the dogs. Thanks for the congrats, I am nervous!!! As an aside, don't you have two sets of twins? Did they tell you the likelehood of having twins again? I have been pregnant with twins twice and they seem to think I am at high risk of another twin pregnancy. Obviouly wonderful, but also more scary as I am more likely to have complications.

Yes I do have two sets of twins. Both sets are identical so apparently not genetic. They said the first set was just luck and the last set because I was so old!!!

I had problems with my first set of twins and had a lot of bed rest etc and difficult delivery and a few issues with the babies at birth. Second set although should have been more problematic no issues at all. I can understand your concern - you have been through the mill but each pregnancy does seem to be completely different. So it is time you had an easy ride I hope. The good thing is that you will be monitored like heck I guess.

Re the dogs your experience and gut knowledge will be right but it will be great to see what the behaviourist advises. It will be hard for you to keep them separate lets hope it does not come to this. Foster dogs can sometimes upset the balance so giving them a break will allow you to see if this is the problem but reintroducing can be hard.

Keep us posted

Well, in short, I paid £60 for a kick up the backside and to be reminded of what I already know... I am not sure on a couple of points, and feel free to say if you disagree with anything though, Minimu.

The guy suggested that the dogs own pecking order is somewhat messed up. Mum is top dog, but her daughter is now at an age where she is fully mature and that coupled with the pre season hormones has led to disaster. Plus, puppy suddenly doesn't have 'puppy license' plus we may have made him more insecure by not setting firm enough boundaries, on top of which he is a bolshy sod with poor doggy social skills.

I have to admit that the dogs training has lapsed over the past months due to my husband walking them whilst I was on bedrest, training wasn't ongoing during that time, it was simply walks only but otherwise the dogs had kind of been left to their own devices. I am still trying to build my fitness back up, but am now back to 'doing' the dogs myself. (walking, training)

He did say that he thought part of the problem was with the puppy and that we may have made him think he is 'above his status' by giving him lots of attention. I hadn't actually realised we were giving him attention on demand until he pointed it out. Puppy will come over and jump up, I say sit (once only) and puppy sits and gets attention. After a bit of ignoring, puppy jumps up, I say sit, he sits, gets attention, then ignored. After a while of this puppy may go off and lay down or may continue it. Oops, didn't he train me well?! I'm not sure I entirely agree with the first part? He has suggested keeping pup on a lead when out, using a gentle leader at first if he pulls whilst we are working on that. He says he feels that off lead walking is kind of on the dog's terms, not mine, even if he does have a good recall. Not entirely sure about that, but will give it a go. We have also just re-introduced the crate for pup, which he seems to like, and the guy thought that was a good idea and would make him feel less nervous in general.

Anyway, it is true that ( due to circumstances) the dogs have been getting away with much more than they normally would. Since the fighting has broken out, I have been much 'stricter' with them and things do seem to have settled a bit. I have arranged to take pup to obedience classes, which will at least help his training and socialisation and the behaviourist has apparantly several bomb proof dogs we can use for socialsation should we need to.

He's suggested walking seperately for training (used to do this, but been lazy lately for obvious reasons!) and walking Mum and daughter together seperately on lead for first introductions once her season is finished. He also suggested using houselines for now so we can safely stop any fights should they break out. (duh, not sure why I didn't think of that! )

Obviously that's not all, but he was here for ages and it wouldn't fit in one post. Basically it's given me a kick up the backside and I feel quite awful that I let things get to this stage. However, I am looking forward to doing some obedience with our (very clever!) puppy and hopefully some agility when he is old enough.

Interesting. I do not believe in the pack theory as you know however I can not stress enough to people that pups must be walked separately. If they are walked with the other dogs on occasions I keep them on a lead for quite a long time at least 6 months. Really just to let them know that it is my rules they work to and that it is a priviledge to walk free and do what they like. This does seem to keep the other dogs in the group relaxed as well and aware that the pup is under control and will not pester them.

I do often introduce the NILIF Nothing in life is free for what people would have called dominant dogs I prefer to call them pushy! This works well with one dog but can cause issues if you are doing it with a group of dogs together.

From your situation I do not feel that the pup is really the cause more the hormones and maturity of the two girls. I guess if they have been allowed a slightly less disciplined reign they may feel slightly anxious that they need to control the situation and are unsure how to do that hence Mum jumping in when daughter was telling off pup.

Dogs do need to be adapatable so do not beat yourself up but I bet when the dogs are back to more training and walks and made to use their brains more things will settle down. However as you know bitches can hold grudges so once an attack has happened it is more likely but if you can see the early warning signs it can be prevented from escalating very easily. Houselines great idea.

I know we all go on about socialisation and training etc etc but sometimes things are out of our control and it is how we deal with them that makes us the good owner not what caused the issues!

I really am quite distraught over the whole thing and the more I think about the things the behaviourist said, the more unsure I am. He did mention the word 'pack' an awful lot (I also don't agree with pack theory) and did also suggest eating first, which I did tell him I thought was nonsense. (actually I was more polite than that) I feed my dogs randomly, always have done, sometimes before us, sometimes after us, sometimes at the same time and it has never caused any problems. Plus, I doubt if I feed my dogs two hours before me they will associate them eating having anything to do with me eating. The important thing as I see it is that I am the one in charge of the food, I say when they eat and they have to sit politely and wait to be fed. When I questioned it, the guy did say he just liked to cover all bases. Or am I just way off the mark? (I am not a behaviourist after all, just a doggy person with an interest in it) He didn't suggest any other sort of rank reduction stuff though, certainly no mention of alpha rolling or anything...

I think you're definitely right about the dogs being more anxious. A lot has changed recently for them and they barely saw me for over three months, whereas I am usually the one who does everything with them. They also usually get a lot of one to one time, but that has been different recently too. I am not sure if Mum and Daughter will ever be able to get on, I am very cautious, currently they will try to do serious damage to one another on sight. Oddly, this is our most serious problem and not one the behaviourist went into in great detail.

I feel rotten about posting here as both you ladies are experts and I'm not.

Firstly... CONGRATULATIONS! How the heck do you manage, 3 dogs and 2 teenagers are hard enough!

My 2p worth is just that I think if you were to repeat your post on a rescue site the majority (far more experienced than me, I'm talking of rescue owners who both have large numbers of dogs and rehome) would recommend neutering, especially, as you rightly say, that breeding from Mum is not now wise. Can see the logic too of spaying the younger bitch.

It isn't an absolute but ime and that of rescue AFAIK neutering a nervous male doesn't normally exacerbate his problems. What is normally said is that such a dog needs you to be very strong so he can rely on you and not feel unnerved.

From a practical POV (and please forgive me because obviously I don't know your home or way of life) I'd be inclined to neuter as you have mentioned having to seperate male and females. That's hard enough with a couple of dogs, but with a busy household/visitors/little ones, it could prove a nightmare and especially as babies grow and don't shut doors.

As I said, you two are the experts and sorry if I sound like I'm trying to interfere. I'm just so sad that a lovely, caring owner is having so much hassle, especially when she least needs it.

Thanks Val. I don't really class myself as an expert and this has certainly brought me down a peg or two. Had someone asked me a month ago the likelhood of something like this happening, I would have probably bet my husband's pension that it wouldn't.

I see what you're saying about the dog being kept with the bitches and it has always been my intention to neuter. I would certainly try Tardak prior to neutering if I were going to do anything now, as you just never know and so many breeders I know say they have known neutering make nervous dogs worse and the behaviourist did say that he had known of several cases. I doubt it was purely down to neutering, but it's not something I want to risk. Also, personally, I would rather wait until the puppy is fully grown, or as near to fully grown as I can. Keeping the puppy seperate from the bitches when in season is not a problem. The children are well trained, but we can also make it physically impossible for them to accidentally let the dogs together, due to the set up of the house.

I would be far more worried about the children accidentally letting the older girls together, tbh. I don't doubt one bit they would try and kill each other on sight at present. I am hoping it is something we can work on, but we'll find a way round it.

Midori I think you should have great confidence in your gut feelings. You have been around dogs for years and your experience is right. Just because for the first time you have an incident to challenge that does not mean you are wrong!

I always think that I have seen it all and then a new problem arises which challenges me.

I would first try chemical castration with the puppy. I agree with your motives entirely on that I have seen it make nervous dogs worse but it can also help.

I guess you want to breed from the younger bitch? If not I would consider spaying her. However I am aware that there are medical issues with Mum so I guess that it is best to spay her. You may find that is enough to change the balance in the group. If the mum is more settled due to not haing all those hormones rushing around and her chilled response could be enough to calm the daughter.

Sometimes though some Mums and daughters just don't get on and that is nothing to do with their upbringing or their enviroment so please do not beat yourself up.

My plan of action would be spay mum not that spaying usually helps with aggression in bitches.
Keep the others busy and back to looking to you for training and exercise.
If no change chemical castration of puppy.

I think when aggression cases come up it is easy for the behaviourist to use words like pack etc to exlain things I tend to use group as we know with children a different group has a different type of energy. But not really down to pack of wolves type thing. Some dogs get on better with others nothing to do with dominance and alpha dog stuff!

Don't want to be the voice of doom and it may not come to this but as you know some bitches can be very grumpy and may be happier separate from each other.

If anyone can sort this Midori you can - wish I were nearer to come and see - not that I can add anything but could give moral support!

Marking my place for later - best wishes and very un-MN to you all.

Very much echo minimu's sentiment that if anyone can sort this, you can Midori

Bella get that butt back here right now We need you!

Did Bella not come back? BELLA

Okay, okay. Don't shout

Click and treat, minimu. Click and treat

Yay click and treat - see it works on anyone!

Great to see you

And you, minimu. And midori, and val {grin]

And everybody really.