Should adult Bullying be a criminal offence when it causes someone to take their own life? (Based on a an irl petition) (TW)

[mumofoneAloneandwell]

Imo, ABSOLUTELY.

Prison time should be given to people like this.

Here's a link to the petition:
https://www.change.org/p/debbie-s-law-make-causing-mental-distress-leading-to-suicide-a-criminal-offence?recruiter=1378678293&recruited_by_id=7b61f5d0-63c5-11f0-87db-479adfa32a59&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=starter_onboarding_share_personal&utm_medium=copylink

Please be mindful in your replies 🙏.

I've no idea how you go about obtaining proof in those circumstances.

I have dealt with suicidal ideation my entire adult life. It's a symptom of a co-morbid depression. I've also been subject to stressors like most other people, I've been close to going ahead with ending my life on numerous occasions. How anyone could possibly determine what would be the cause of my suicide or the impetus behind it I have no idea, because that's something that only I am ever privy to, but not only that, with the SI being a symptom there often isn't any causal factor at all, it's just something my mind does.

So all of that being the case, how does one "prove" that any of the various stressors in my life are the causal factor in my suicide?

Even if I left a note explaining precisely why I've ended my life, that's a simple matter to pick apart, because

1. I've committed suicide, not the actions of anyone who can be said to be sound of mind and in a rational place
2. There is nothing preventing me from concocting any reason I like for my suicide, including maliciously implicating something or someone entirely innocent simply because I feel like it, or, given I am not in a normal state of mind in the first place, I misguidedly apportion my suicide to something which is perfectly reasonable because my interpretation of it or reaction to it is unreasonable

You can not rationalise irrational behaviour, and you can not open up someone's head and examine the thoughts going on inside, especially not once they are deceased and no longer able to articulate themselves.

I agree with the notion in principle, because I believe it's a noble thought, but I can not see how this could possibly result in any sort of worthwhile or workable law.

If the person is neurodivergent, has a learning disability or is a vulnerable adult due to mental illness, then absolutely. For example almost 80% of people with autism have experienced bullying and victimisation. As autistic people are 10 x more likely to take their own lives than the general population, it should be classified not just as a hate crime but manslaughter

I am neurodivergent, diagnosed, have persistent SI, and I still totally disagree with this.

There is absolutely no way you can prove someone took their own life because of the actions or inaction of another party. Even "suicide notes" aren't viable evidence, because you can't say someone writing a suicide note is in a sound state of mind.

I dont really get the concerns

Someone who is suicidal is vulnerable, but so is a domestic abuse survivor, or a grooming gang survivor - theyre still believable

I think there's a widely held belief that someone committing suicide is 'on their own' when actually there can be very clear reasons that someone takes their own life

A suicide note should be considered as evidence, in the same way that a rape survivor's word is taken as evidence

Thank you for sharing your personal experience ❤️

I'm not sure that, in circumstances where someone is so broken that they see no way out, as a direct result of the bullying, their suicide can be seen as irrational 🥺

suicide, not the actions of anyone who can be said to be sound of mind and in a rational place

It’s a myth that suicide is de facto evidence of being of unsound mind: it can be a perfectly rational act.

Oh, and the OP’s suggestion is not only unreasonable but bloody daft.

😄😄 I certainly have made a choice re posting on aibu

But tbf, the responses have been measured and not unkind

Why do you think it is daft?

Agree that suicide isnt always irrational

I think that a combing of the accused social media, messages, witness testimonies of behaviur

Similar to accusations against evil male celebrities

Omg 🥺

How bloody sad

Was there any recompense against the bullies at all?

I think i agree with you kind of

But I also think that when the dwp hound vulnerable people for money, which causes suicide, they should face charges 🙈😡

In the case where its clear that a person or a group of people have gathered together to bully someone, in work or in their neighbourhood, then they should face a criminal investigation and prison time for manslaughter if their phones and social media and witness testimonies show that they were bullying the deceased

I disagree with this girl - but if the person in the relationship was innocent, then they wouldnt face any charges

If it could be proven that that person was abusive, they'd be punished rightfully

We're talking about a scenario whereby there is an ongoing effort to ascertain and prove the cause of a suicide for legal purposes.

In those particular circumstances, the word of the victim themselves is not going to stand up to scrutiny, because there will always be sufficient doubt that they were, indeed, in a sound and rational state of mind when they recorded it. Even if they claim to be so, it doesn't mean they necessarily are, and as ending your own life is not a typical action for anyone in a normal state of mind, there will always be sufficient enough doubt that it will fall short of meeting any reasonable threshold.

Suicide absolutely can be a rational act. Aside from my own personal experience, I work in mental health, I'm a trained mental health first-aider, so I have a bit of insight into the hows/whys and what the process often entails. Having said that though, I'm still 100% of the view that ending your own life, absent of any impending worse death due to illness, is not a rational choice any 100% healthy person is going to make, so even if the cause and the stressor is external, deciding to end your life as a means of dealing with it is still not a normal, healthy response, even though it might be an entire rational solution in the mind of the person experiencing it due to its finality.

You’ve completely missed my point. Which is that we should be giving people reasons not to take their own life, not giving additional reasons to do so.

The legislation suggested would be an incentive to suicide as it could be used by the victim to punish someone else.

I think you cant legislate to make people nice, but bullying should be legislated against 🥺

Bullying is more than a joke, its a period of sustained nastiness causing distress

Completely agree with you

And would say that being bullied for being autistic is something I have personally experienced. I was undiagnosed and treated as a weirdo. People are nasty, honestly

OP, you are clearly coming at this from a place of kindness, and I have huge respect for you for this.

But the vast majority of people who DWP work with could legitimately be classed as vulnerable in some sense. Obviously some more than others. If people owe money, they owe money. We can't sustain current public services, but to then create a situation whereby anyone can claim vulnerability and harassment whenever anyone asks them for money is unfathomable to me. Anyone who can't work or can work but can't find a job will feel stressed and anxious. Do they now never need to pay for anything? Can they walk out of supermarkets and pubs without paying because life is stressful and asking them for money more than once is harassment. Most people won't behave like this. But there will always be those who take the piss.

If a vulnerable person commits suicide then I don't think that the DWP assessor, letting agency and GP should be held criminally responsible simply because it happened on their watch.

Anyone who bullies someone to death is of course pond scum. But I don't think that what the petition is asking for is the answer.

This is such a thoughtful, honest post.

If a vulnerable person commits suicide then I don't think that the DWP assessor, letting agency and GP should be held criminally responsible simply because it happened on their watch.
Agree who on earth would want to do these jobs, or let a property to a 'vulnerable' person with the knowledge that should the person do anything of harm to themselves or someone else it's on them as there's no personal responsibility now.
What monies are the DWP harassing people for?

But I also think that when the dwp hound vulnerable people for money, which causes suicide, they should face charges

But how would that work. Who faces the charges? Somebody who has sent identical letters to 200 people that month, but one of those kills themselves? How do you possibly find that person guilty of bullying? They were doing their job. They weren't singling anybody out. You're asking for the impossible, and morally wrong here.

You also earlier said "Maybe it should be provable" Maybe???

And as pointed out by someone else earlier, you also leave it open to abuse, if someone can leave a note blaming someone else.

People have killed themselves because they are in debt. That does not mean whoever they owe money to is to blame, and neither are any bailiffs that come either.

I know someone who works for Thames Water, and she has a regular who rings up and threatens suicide all the time when he is told he owes money. She calls the police. Every time. If he actually does it, it wont be her fault, even though there is a strong possibility he would blame her.

I said maybe as I was making a suggestion as part of a wider point in my post

It would obviously need to be provable 😭

And the dwp are often sued for hounding someone to death - the person who oversees practices that result in the hounding to death of someone should be punished

Everything is open to abuse - it would need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that their actions led to someone's death

Its the same with all he said she said crimes - they rely on witness testimony, proof of WhatsApp messages etc

As in all cases of corporate negligence, one person isnt to blame, but the head of the organisation is, who agreed to these practices

I think that, with the dwp, mistakes often happen, which shouldn't when the people relying on them are so vulnerable. They have a duty of care, and when a simple mistake is made, it should be reasonably sorted. We all know about their evil sanctions and the damage they do

Thank you for calling me kind - i try, I can be a bit of a luvvie, I know but I've survived so much nastiness, I get all riled up 😭

Agree, bullies are pond life and deserve to rot 😡

And the dwp are often sued for hounding someone to death - the person who oversees practices that result in the hounding to death of someone should be punished
Successfully sued?
Can you share case examples?
Hounding to death over what?

The more I think about it the more awful and dangerous I think this suggestion is.

I’ve attached the Samaritan’s guidelines on reporting suicides. Two sections are particularly relevant (although other sections are too):

2 Include references to suicide being preventable and signpost sources of support, such as Samaritans' helpline. This can encourage people to seek help, which could save lives.

When life is difficult, Samaritans are here - day or night, 365 days a year. You can call them for free on 116 123, email them at [email protected], or visit www.samaritans.org to find your nearest branch.

and

9. Speculation about the 'trigger' or cause of a suicide can oversimplify the issue and should be avoided. Suicide is extremely complex and most of the time there is no single event or factor that leads someone to take their own life.

The suggestion in the OP is predicated on the idea that someone has absolutely no choice but to take their own life, and that there is one single causal factor. Both these ideas are in complete contradiction to all suicide prevention work. Suicide is NOT inevitable, it is never the right choice, and we can never know the full and true reasons that someone makes this decision.

https://media.samaritans.org/documents/MediaGuidelinesFINAL.pdf