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Petitions and activism

Abolish LEA fines for taking kids out of school for holidays

120 replies

KuanKaKu · 20/05/2024 13:41

Recent times have proven that taking time away from the home for a holiday is important for families; a holiday provides much needed regrouping time, benefits the mental health and wellbeing of the whole family, provides inter-generational socialisation, access to wider cultures and events, being able to travel in term time will make holidays accessible to those who can not afford to travel during peak school holidays, and planned absence is easier for schools to manage than excess last minute 'sick days'. There are many more benefits to abolishing these fines - for genuine holidays, including the benefit on the tourism sector of demand being spread more evenly throughout the year, providing longevity of employment contracts, cheaper travel for teachers in the holidays and a more reliable income stream for tourism businesses throughout the year. PLEASE SIGN. https://chng.it/PBrrYtRCCB

Sign the Petition

Abolish Local Education Authority Fines for Family Holidays

https://chng.it/PBrrYtRCCB

OP posts:
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MaisieMacabe · 21/05/2024 07:42

mossylog · 20/05/2024 23:23

@Gladtobeout I don't necessarily disagree, I'm sure there are lots of parents who don't value education out there who do like a cheap holiday, but I still don't think fines are appropriate.

In the UK, it's the parent's responsibility to ensure their child has an education. This general duty conflicts with the laws around attendances. We've got this weird two-tier system: either the parents are home schooling entirely, or the parents give over full educational control to a school who can then punish them for taking back any of that control. Could be a bit more compromise here.

Schools cannot and do not "punish" parents.

DancefloorAcrobatics · 21/05/2024 08:01

Sorry, its a no from me.

OpusGiemuJavlo · 21/05/2024 08:10

There are 38 weeks in the school year. If each pupil can take 2 weeks off in term time and the teacher can also take 2 weeks off in term time that's 4 weeks out of 38 where there's no new learning. That's more than 10% of the education time a pupil is entitled to wasted because of greed.

The vast majority of parents who want to take theit kids on term time holidays are not at the income level where it's term-time only or no holiday at all. They are getting a cut price high quality overseas holiday for the same price they could pay for a school-holiday-time break somewhere cheaper. The children's education isn't being sacrificed in order to make a holiday possible, it's being sacrificed in order to make the holiday posher and more luxurious.

Fizbosshoes · 21/05/2024 08:18

If you're working and take kids out in term time, it surely must be more of nightmare to cover all the school holidays when you're not going away?

mossylog · 21/05/2024 09:02

MaisieMacabe · 21/05/2024 07:42

Schools cannot and do not "punish" parents.

A fine is a punishment. The local authority can and do issue fines based on school attendance, and the schools set their attendance policies and give or take permission for absence. Maybe it's fairier to say that it's the school system rather than just the schools who are disciplining parents.

KuanKaKu · 21/05/2024 10:57

It's really interesting how many people don't see travel, holidays and time away with family as educational, this is what needs to be challenged in my opinion; the value real life experiences bring vs highly structured classroom learning, which is only the 'norm' because we accept it as such... even if the current model is not fit for purpose for a large amount of students, given the blanket approach, we still seem to succumb to cramming classrooms and reeling off a standard curriculum as an education, education is not all academic.

This is interesting (American though) https://www.afar.com/magazine/want-to-take-your-kids-out-of-school-to-travel-heres-what-to-know

Two children with their father at the edge of a stream in West Maui

Should You Take Your Kids Out of School to Travel?

Is missing school a detriment to your child's education or an enhancement?

https://www.afar.com/magazine/want-to-take-your-kids-out-of-school-to-travel-heres-what-to-know

OP posts:
MaisieMacabe · 21/05/2024 16:21

That's not the problem, @KuanKaKu . Of course it's great to do such trips with your children. You've got 13 weeks of the year to do so.
Go for it. It should run alongside school, not instead of it.

mitogoshi · 21/05/2024 16:25

@KuanKaKu

I do see travel as important but I did it in the school holidays, they have 13 weeks a year!

The only time I ever took my kids out of school was to attend an event eg a wedding, funeral or couple of times classical music related experiences that I got permission for. They are grown now, we travel in term time and appreciate the lack of children!

Summer holidays don't have to be more expensive if you choose locations wisely avoiding holiday hotspots

theresnolimits · 21/05/2024 16:28

Conversation on Parents’ Evening in Year 11
Teacher: ‘X is really behind because they missed 4 poems from the Poetry Unit’ when they were away for 2 weeks’
Parent: ‘Well what are you going to do about it?’
Teacher: ‘Nothing. I was here and taught the lessons. What are you going to do about it?’
Parent: ‘Errr…’

This actually happened. Now substitute a maths topic, language skills, a mock exam, a practical, prep for coursework, PE assessment … and then multiply that by two or three kids out every week throughout the year. And then you do the maths as they say.

leftkneeonbackwards · 21/05/2024 16:32

KuanKaKu · 20/05/2024 14:23

Known absence makes it easier for the school to manage their resourcing, enabling additional one to one sessions etc..within ratios.

There would be a knock on effect to demand and supply for holidays, that goes without saying, the scale of that would only be known post abolition, obviously many people travel in August for weather related reasons and not just the fact it is the school holidays, being able to travel mid July though for those in state schools may tip demand away from August, and provide more shifts to tourism workers for a longer period of time.

Overall though it is seeing holidays as 'skipping off' that is disconcerting, the value of going away on a holiday far outweighs the school time missed, here is just one article with referenced links on this https://uk.news.yahoo.com/style/science-behind-taking-children-term-time-holiday-151510359.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFKFgF_EFfv8sSZiRE1PLkWbvVA-Gh1lxak5CXn-4VH4YNsbP89B4ccE-6AdB1lAib2UT_jwj2B3uMzo-T76k_6pFICFc4h681CANLIgjUztQzlPFO39tjshAnekkJWeDINRi0V45TxdkxjdcmbIfk6ExKymEY4IJcBa_BRSCqb3

enabling additional one to ones etc? What are you talking about? who is going to sit down and plan a timetable of additional one to ones? Who is going to have any time to DO additional one to one?

So an privileged family can go skiing?

leftkneeonbackwards · 21/05/2024 16:33

KuanKaKu · 21/05/2024 10:57

It's really interesting how many people don't see travel, holidays and time away with family as educational, this is what needs to be challenged in my opinion; the value real life experiences bring vs highly structured classroom learning, which is only the 'norm' because we accept it as such... even if the current model is not fit for purpose for a large amount of students, given the blanket approach, we still seem to succumb to cramming classrooms and reeling off a standard curriculum as an education, education is not all academic.

This is interesting (American though) https://www.afar.com/magazine/want-to-take-your-kids-out-of-school-to-travel-heres-what-to-know

Children need to be in school learning. Children need to have family experiences OUTSIDE of school term times.

SerafinasGoose · 21/05/2024 17:07

PrescriptionOnlyMedicine · 20/05/2024 19:25

Maybe petition the travel industry to not charge exorbitant prices in school holidays.

Not their responsibility. They are just as entitled to price their products and services in accordance with supply and demand as any other industry.

As to the question of school attendance, I am an educator. I value education enormously. There is undoubtedly a correlation between attendance and achievement, in particular where attendance is patchy or a lot of time is missed. There is, equally, educational research which tends to suggest that quantity of time spent in the classroom does not equate with quality of education, and where didactic education benefits from a balance with more experiential forms of learning. The educational problems faced today are far bigger than occasional/sporadic absence: one being that IMO the National Curriculum is unfit for purpose. The English literature syllabus, to quote one example, is taking what should be an enriching, passionate and enjoyable subject and bludgeoning it to death, turning it into the most dry, didactic, mind-numbing discipline imaginable. Check out university applications for a direct correlation. It's putting kids right off studying the subject at a higher level.

But I digress. As in all things it's a question of common-sense and the balance of risk vs. benefit, particularly when taking into account specific personal circumstances, and knowing when the times are that missing school is absolutely unacceptable (such as the GCSE years). Of course, not all parents are sensible. There are, however, already sanctions for persistent truancy. As for the child catching up, with rights come responsibilities and if you assume the right to remove them from their learning environment, the onus needs to be on you to fill that gap.

There are very few instances in which I'd deem it acceptable to take my DC out of school. I'd exercise my right to do so very seldom - we're talking once or twice in a school lifetime or when a particular need had arisen (ie a long period of parental illness causing protracted stress and the need for some recuperative time away, meaning a few days tacked onto a school holiday). However. As the parent, I am rightfully the one to make that judgement call. Not the Nanny State.

Ritadidsomethingbad · 21/05/2024 17:15

SerafinasGoose · 21/05/2024 17:07

Not their responsibility. They are just as entitled to price their products and services in accordance with supply and demand as any other industry.

As to the question of school attendance, I am an educator. I value education enormously. There is undoubtedly a correlation between attendance and achievement, in particular where attendance is patchy or a lot of time is missed. There is, equally, educational research which tends to suggest that quantity of time spent in the classroom does not equate with quality of education, and where didactic education benefits from a balance with more experiential forms of learning. The educational problems faced today are far bigger than occasional/sporadic absence: one being that IMO the National Curriculum is unfit for purpose. The English literature syllabus, to quote one example, is taking what should be an enriching, passionate and enjoyable subject and bludgeoning it to death, turning it into the most dry, didactic, mind-numbing discipline imaginable. Check out university applications for a direct correlation. It's putting kids right off studying the subject at a higher level.

But I digress. As in all things it's a question of common-sense and the balance of risk vs. benefit, particularly when taking into account specific personal circumstances, and knowing when the times are that missing school is absolutely unacceptable (such as the GCSE years). Of course, not all parents are sensible. There are, however, already sanctions for persistent truancy. As for the child catching up, with rights come responsibilities and if you assume the right to remove them from their learning environment, the onus needs to be on you to fill that gap.

There are very few instances in which I'd deem it acceptable to take my DC out of school. I'd exercise my right to do so very seldom - we're talking once or twice in a school lifetime or when a particular need had arisen (ie a long period of parental illness causing protracted stress and the need for some recuperative time away, meaning a few days tacked onto a school holiday). However. As the parent, I am rightfully the one to make that judgement call. Not the Nanny State.

Great post!

MaisieMacabe · 21/05/2024 17:18

Yes, but you might be responsible and not need a nanny state, @SerafinasGoose - unfortunately not all children are blessed with such parents and so need to be protected and supported.

CheshireCat1 · 21/05/2024 17:25

Just book a more budget friendly break that you can afford in the school holidays, you don’t need to spend a fortune to have time and experiences with your children.

SerafinasGoose · 21/05/2024 17:29

Ritadidsomethingbad · 21/05/2024 17:15

Great post!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. It's one with which I suspect a great many would disagree: unfortunately there's a tendency in the UK for people to want to be told what to do and to hand over individual autonomy and responsibility to The Government to make those decisions for them and everyone else at the same time.

I'm a believer in individual freedom and autonomy, within limits and provided the law is kept. I suspect if certain other countries were to have Gove's draconian fining system imposed on them from above there would be an outcry, and probably rightly so. (Gove, incidentally, has been amongst the worst Education Secretaries seen in several generations; I know of no other educators who have a good word to say about him).

Other issues: bullying, the terrible system of teaching literacy via phonics which are appalling for kids with SEN (and studies are unsubstantiated as to whether the system is even beneficial), the atrocious grammar so often displayed by new university undergraduates, the unacceptable levels of numerical illiteracy, are all issues which should form urgent priorities within any Department of Education. Our standards have badly sunk, not only in comparison with our own previous, pre-National Curriculum educational standards, but with current ones in, say, Scandinavia, and some in the US.

And we are expending our energies in policing the colour of stitching on kids' shoes or fining parents when they have the odd bit of in-term time off (without which some poorer kids might never get a holiday at all).

Successive governments have ruined the compulsory education sector, teaching has a severe recruitment crisis, and now our universities are in free-fall and are haemorrhaging staff to VS schemes. At some point, they need to start asking themselves where, why and how they have gone so badly wrong.

leftkneeonbackwards · 21/05/2024 20:26

I think the whole premise that quality of family experiences is related to money spent is fundamentally unsound. You can have amazing summer holidays on a very low budget. There is not need to take children out of school to "be able to afford" "better" holidays. This is just wealth and privilege talking

KuanKaKu · 22/05/2024 12:18

SerafinasGoose · 21/05/2024 17:29

Thanks for the vote of confidence. It's one with which I suspect a great many would disagree: unfortunately there's a tendency in the UK for people to want to be told what to do and to hand over individual autonomy and responsibility to The Government to make those decisions for them and everyone else at the same time.

I'm a believer in individual freedom and autonomy, within limits and provided the law is kept. I suspect if certain other countries were to have Gove's draconian fining system imposed on them from above there would be an outcry, and probably rightly so. (Gove, incidentally, has been amongst the worst Education Secretaries seen in several generations; I know of no other educators who have a good word to say about him).

Other issues: bullying, the terrible system of teaching literacy via phonics which are appalling for kids with SEN (and studies are unsubstantiated as to whether the system is even beneficial), the atrocious grammar so often displayed by new university undergraduates, the unacceptable levels of numerical illiteracy, are all issues which should form urgent priorities within any Department of Education. Our standards have badly sunk, not only in comparison with our own previous, pre-National Curriculum educational standards, but with current ones in, say, Scandinavia, and some in the US.

And we are expending our energies in policing the colour of stitching on kids' shoes or fining parents when they have the odd bit of in-term time off (without which some poorer kids might never get a holiday at all).

Successive governments have ruined the compulsory education sector, teaching has a severe recruitment crisis, and now our universities are in free-fall and are haemorrhaging staff to VS schemes. At some point, they need to start asking themselves where, why and how they have gone so badly wrong.

Edited

Thanks for your well articulated posts! These are my sentiments exactly, the current situation has absolutely no leeway it’s either in or out, with no middle ground, there is no scope in the curriculum to recognise alternative parent/guardian led experiences as educational. There is proven value in children participating in a wide range of activities, both near and far. Fining people for providing genuine experiences is counter productive, it should not necessarily be seen as absenting education to not be in school IF an experience of additional value is being provided.

OP posts:
Walkden · 22/05/2024 16:19

"Fining people for providing genuine experiences is counter productive, it should not necessarily be seen as absenting education to not be in school IF an experience of additional value is being provided"

Get a grip OP. It's hardly like people are taking kids to benidorm or skiing or whatever for the educational value is it?

If you want to be in charge of your kids education homeschool them. Then you can take them on as many vacations with educational value as you want.

There is clear statistical evidence that absence from school harms achievement. The government is not going to change course on this in the foreseeable future.

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