Domestic violence services shouldn't stigmatise dads

[eyeisbloke]

Hi Mums and Dads,

If anyone would like to sign a petition asking the Royal Borough of Greenwich replace their ‘Dad’s have the strength to change’ poster you can do so here: www.change.org/p/chief-executive-royalgreenwich-gov-uk-have-the-strength-to-change-domestic-violence-services-shouldn-t-stigmatise-dads …

Despite numerous complaints and national newspaper coverage the council have defended their choice of words, stating that the campaign is designed to help all family members at risk and that 'whilst women can also be the cause of domestic violence, the majority of incidents are committed by men.'

Such a perception is highly questionable. Research repeatedly shows that women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men [1] and that domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal [2].

According to the council's own estimates, 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in your Borough will experience domestic abuse. Based on this, is a message suggesting that men accessing their services will likely be perceived as perpetrators is really the most effective away of addressing violence against vulnerable people of either sex?

I hope you can show your support.

[1]www.prweb.com/releases/2013/5/prweb10741752.htm
[2]pb.rcpsych.org/content/35/1/33.1

[BaggiesBaggies]

I'm fortunate enough not to have personally experienced this so that doesn't shape my view. Still sitting on the no thanks bench. Also there is my lovely DH who is not abusive and knows very well this isn't about him but about the men who make up the vast majority of domestic abusers.

And when you say this campaign isn't meant to diminish the experience of female victims, it really ought to give you pause for thought that that is how pretty much every person posting on this thread sees it. Miscommunication is the most charitable interpretation possible of the aim behind your petition.

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

It is worth noting that the disparity in refuge places has a basis in genuine need - and yes, I do know that men can sufferers of abuse as well. We all know that.

Women are far more likely to be in fear of their lives, and in fear of sexual violence, on leaving an abusive relationship. (That is, when they feel they can escape at all.) Women are more likely to be the primary carers of the children, more likely to be the lesser earner, or to have given up completely to care for the children.

Women are more likely to need shelter and financial assistance to leave an abuser.

[MistressMerryWeather]

Why does it take THIS for you guys to come here and protest?

Why is it always a response to issues that involve women?

This is why you are met with such hostility, you make no platform for yourselves unless there is a camera flashing yet leech off the causes of others.

Stop with the press mongering, stop riling up your followers for a spot in the papers and start actually looking after each other.

That's what we do here on Mumsnet.

[LuisCarol]

The motivation behind the petition is to help draw attention to the lack of services and the type of stereotypical attitudes that impact on this.

No it isn't.

"The purpose of this petition is to request that the Royal Borough of Greenwich replace their ‘Dad’s have the strength to change’ poster and promote a more balanced message that shows due regard to hardworking mothers and fathers.

I am asking any sisters, brothers, husbands, wives, grandparents, sons and / or daughters who are sick of seeing fathers being singled out and demonised in such a manner to sign this petition."

The motivation behind the petition is NAMALT. It's explicitly right there in the opening two paragraphs of the petition.

Even if the motivation behind the petition was to draw attention to the lack of services for men who are victims of abuse, objecting to a poster targeting abusers is... at best... really really stupid.

[UnderTheGreenwoodTree]

I also agree that the OP is misrepresenting the petition on here.

The oft-quoted 60-40 stat doesn't take the severity of the violence, or the number of attacks, into account. It treats a verbal tongue-lashing as the same as a severe beating that requires hospital treatment, and it does not include sexual violence. It's really misleading - yet oft-quoted. It fails to account for the very real fear women can feel of having a much stronger man losing his temper, and becoming violent, and the severity of the violence inflicted. In abusive relationships, the mere threat of violence can often be enough to keep her under his control. I sometimes think (some/a lot of) men just don't understand this aspect of it - that fear of being overpowered, hurt, even being killed, is itself a form of control.

When you do read personal accounts of female on male vs. male on female physical violence - the latter is so much more serious. Women are something like 6 times more likely to need hospital treatment. Some of the supposedly worst anecdotal stories I've read on even the most extreme MRA websites are really quite mild in comparison (although of course, still not at all justified- except in self-defence). They will describe the throwing of a mobile phone, a slap, or scratching with the fingernails. Whereas the male on female violence will frequently involve throttling, punching, repeated kicking a woman to the floor. And, all too often, rape.

This petition goes even further, however, with one sentence describing women as more likely to be aggressive in relationships. If you, eyeisbloke cannot see how that is damaging to the very real, gendered nature of domestic violence, then I despair.

[LuisCarol]

Please don't bow out, OP. I want to know if this

Wow, I guess I've been incredibly naive but I'm genuinely surprised to see such an overwhelmingly negative reaction from mumsnet parents, particularly on a dadsnet thread.

has caused you to rethink at all, and if so, about what?

[differentnameforthis]

I respect that personal experience may have a bearing on how people view this issue. No history in my life of DV..and still on the NOPE bench.

I work with family violence victims. They are overwhelmingly female.

they estimate that 25% [of men] will experience IPV in their lifetime, Does that account for intimate partner violence against men by MALE partners?

Home Office figures reveal that on average, 100 women a year and around 30 men a year are killed within a domestic abuse context. Women are almost exclusively killed by men whereas in contrast approximately one third of the men are killed by other men and a little under a third are killed by women against whom they have a documented history of abuse.
From the very article you linked to!

[flipflopdrop]

Another no from me. Dervel your post says it all.

It is still risky for a woman to report domestic violence - there may be many events before it is reported. It may not be reported by the victim.

I don't want domestic violence in my community thanks.

I don't want women and children to continue to be abused and terrorised.

Men who abuse women do so because there are very widespread cultural acceptance of this at some level. Men learn to control women. It is everywhere. Look at the music videos which are rampant with women being objectified, dehumanised, use violence against them. Men still have this entitlement still. Boys still grow up with thinking being sensitive or vulnerable is not a trait they want.

We have not insisted that boys and men need to think about everyone. Boys will be Boys is just rubbish.

When you understand what absused women are up against it is phenomenal.

I congratulate every woman and child who sees and gets through the abuse.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

eyeisbloke

"The motivation behind the petition is to help draw attention to the lack of services and the type of stereotypical attitudes that impact on this."

If that is truly the motivation behind the petition then it is badly phrased.

Frankly we shouldn't be removing the stigma that is attached to DV/DA we should be increasing it.

If however you do want to draw attention to the lack of services and attitudes etc. there are better ways of doing so.

[SomeonesRealName]

Well said LuisCarol OP please desist with your NAMALT petition - by skewing the statistics you are only making life harder, more dangerous, more frightening and more miserable for women like me who have suffered abuse at the hands of male partners and can't do a thing about it except hide, lay low and try not to provoke. The absolute last thing I would do is report it and risk things escalating for me and DC I don't even keep the same username on here for more than a few posts. I am certain that the male on female violence that is actually reported to the authorities is the tiniest tip of the iceberg. It stands to reason that Police reports of domestic abuse will predominantly be made by bystanders, victims who are utterly desperate and people who for whatever reason don't have to fear repercussions. I support Greenwich in its campaign and applaud it for taking such a robust position.

[fakenamefornow]

Can I ask op, if this poster, and other campaigns like it actually worked and reduced violence against women, even though it hurt your feelings, would you still petition against it?

[PlaysWellWithOthers]

Men who abuse women do so because there is very widespread cultural acceptance of this at some level.

And this petition is supporting that acceptance. Fathers4Justice? Should change their name after this campaign to FathersWhoCoverUpForTheirViolentBrothers.

[HamaTime]

It's a nope from me.

It's not even a tiny bit questionable that the majority of domestic abusers are men. The violence is gendered and I give zero fucks if violent mens' feeling are hurt.

[eyeisbloke]

Reply to fakenamefornow,

Personally, no, if I thought it actually worked and would help to educed violence against women then I absolutely would not object to it.

The campaign is especially aimed at highlighting the impact of DV/DA on children and again if I seriously believed it would help to reduce the impact on children then I would completely support it.

BTW my complaint isn't about hurt feelings, for me it's an extremely clumsy campaign slogan that, much like the world cup abuse myth [1], has the potential to do as much harm as good.

The Government defines domestic violence as "Any incident of threatening behaviour, violence or abuse (psychological, physical, sexual, financial or emotional) between adults who are or have been intimate partners or family members, regardless of gender or sexuality."

I completely accept that women are vastly more likely to be seriously injured or killed [2] and that men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crimes [3]. I also accept that statistically and proportionally, the type of extreme behaviour that quite rightly leads to conviction is not representative of the significant majority of fathers.

If the actions of Public Authorities, like Greenwich are being informed by much higher estimates like the often quoted Crime Survey, that aprox 2 million adults in England and Wales experience abuse [4], then I think they could be spending public money more wisely and much more effectively than on this very clumsy poster.


[1] www.nationalreview.com/article/243442/world-cup-abuse-nightmare-christina-hoff-sommers
[2] fullfact.org/factchecks/women_deaths_domestic_violence-28942
[3]fullfact.org/articles/bad_and_dangerous_to_know_do_men_commit_almost_all_crime-28939
[4] fullfact.org/factchecks/men_victims_domestic_violence-28872

[fakenamefornow]

Just to share my story as well. My cousin had a violent abusive partner who beat her so badly she needed hospital treatment on more than one occasion. One of the beatingswas because she'd let a male doctor examine her while she was in hospital in labour. Another time he tried the throw her from a second floor balcony while myself and her six year old son tried to hold on to her, this insistent took place while she had a restraining order against him. A neighbour eventually called the police who sat outside in the car for 20 minutes, allowing him plenty of time to leave, when they did come up we told them what had happened, that she had a restraining order and were he'd gone. The police just shrugged their shoulders and asked what she wanted them to do. My cousins cooperated at ever stage with the police, she did get a restraining order, which made bugger all difference, but her was never prosecuted for him violence towards her (or his previous partner). He was thankfully removed from her life and sent to prison after he beat up and stole from a man. Oh and BTW, the man he beat up didn't need hospital treatment for his injuries, unlike my cousin.

I guess this man who was beaten up once would count in your stats, while my cousin and her partner's previous girlfriend who were both beaten several times wouldn't.

This was all about 25 years ago so hopefully things might have improved. And some police officers were helpful and did was to put the case forward for prosecution but then this incident with the man happened, my cousin was a witness against her partner on this (which resulted in the balcony incident as a consequence for her) the police felt they had a better chance of convicting him on that so they went with that to get him out of her life.

[fakenamefornow]

Op if you wouldn't petition against the poster if it worker why don't you drop the petition and give it a chance then? After all bugger all else seems to be working so let's try a different approach.

[LovelyFriend]

eyeisbloke after reading this thread do you still stand by/believe in these statements you made in your OP?

Research repeatedly shows that women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men and that domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal

Do you accept that much of the DV against men is perpetrated by men? You do seem to be assuming that DV against men is perpetrated by women.

Do you accept that many women who commit acts of DV against men have themselves been long term victims of DV and are eventually lashing out in response?

[HermioneWeasley]

OP, it's interesting that (in your words) this clumsily worded poster which is a poor use of public money, has got your worked up enough to encourage people to sign a petition against. You are worked up about "dads being stigmatised"

I'm interested to know how much time and energy you put into stopping actual violence against women. How many petitions have your circulated (for example) calling for violence against women to be classed as a hate crime? Or better funding for refuges? Or really ANY issue which affects women?

Or is it just the Poetential for men's hurt feelings that gets you worked up?

[JassyRadlett]

The campaign is especially aimed at highlighting the impact of DV/DA on children and again if I seriously believed it would help to reduce the impact on children then I would completely support it.

But your petition isn't about whether the poster is ineffective or a bad communications product for the outcome it's aiming for.

It's suggesting the poster demonises (or even targets) all fathers. Which is a bit silly.

I'm a pregnant woman and a mother. There is a huge amount of advertising aimed at telling new mothers and pregnant women not to smoke because it may be bad for their babies. It is not aimed at fathers who smoke, I assume because the greatest risk to foetus and newborn is from smoking by the mother.

I do not feel in any way that this advertising is aimed at me, even though it doesn't specificy that it is only aimed at mothers who smoke. I don't feel victimised because it doesn't also mention the harm caused by fathers who smoke.

NB: I am in no way equating maternal smoking with domestic violence, they are off the scales different, and I have a huge amount of sympathy with women (and men) who are trying to break the addiction. I'm simply pointing out that OP's reaction to an advertising campaign seems extremely skewed.

[BlahBlahUsername]

Research repeatedly shows that women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men [1] and that domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal [2]

Hmm. Isn't it funny how actual real life doesn't show that?

I'm also interested in why these groups never show any interest in exploring or trying to prevent male on male domestic violence, given that the majority of male fatalities from domestic abuse come from homosexual relationships. Why is that never touched on?

[TendonQueen]

OP, you say this poster has the potential to do more harm than good. How?

Are you suggesting that men may look at it and think 'hey, that assumes I'm a violent partner. Well, I may as well do it then!' thus increasing levels of domestic violence?

I suspect not, and that your explanation of 'more harm than good' would be about perpetrating stereotypes. In which case, wouldn't your cause be better served by campaigning against such stereotypes in music video, Hollywood film, or soaps - all media forms that have much wider circulation and potential to influence perceptions than this local poster campaign ever will?

[SenecaFalls]

The campaign is especially aimed at highlighting the impact of DV/DA on children and again if I seriously believed it would help to reduce the impact on children then I would completely support it.

Many violent men obviously don't care at all how their violence affects the women they abuse. This campaign is based on the notion that they just might care about how that violence affects their children. Don't you think it's worth a try, OP?

[BitOfFun]

IPV? I assume that means Inter-Personal Violence?

Have you ever read 1984 and come across the concept of Newspeak? It's the same kind of re-labelling that sees 'cuts' become 'savings' while the rich get richer, and 'refugees' become 'asylum-seekers' become 'migrants' become a 'swarm' that aren't even given the dignity of not having their drowned children's bodies given some basic privacy in death.

I cannot support a campaign that deliberately sets out to eradicate the gendered nature of violence in our society by not-so-subtly attempting to create a new set of buzzwords to distort the problem and obscure the solution. Male violence is one of the biggest issues we ALL face, and we can't fix it until we name it.

So put me on the no bench too.

[SenecaFalls]

IPV is Intimate Partner Violence.

[BitOfFun]

Thanks, Seneca. I think the obscuring of the gendered nature of the issue still applies though. Seems a bit insidious to me.