Domestic violence services shouldn't stigmatise dads

[eyeisbloke]

Hi Mums and Dads,

If anyone would like to sign a petition asking the Royal Borough of Greenwich replace their ‘Dad’s have the strength to change’ poster you can do so here: www.change.org/p/chief-executive-royalgreenwich-gov-uk-have-the-strength-to-change-domestic-violence-services-shouldn-t-stigmatise-dads …

Despite numerous complaints and national newspaper coverage the council have defended their choice of words, stating that the campaign is designed to help all family members at risk and that 'whilst women can also be the cause of domestic violence, the majority of incidents are committed by men.'

Such a perception is highly questionable. Research repeatedly shows that women perpetrate physical and emotional abuse at comparable rates to men [1] and that domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal [2].

According to the council's own estimates, 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in your Borough will experience domestic abuse. Based on this, is a message suggesting that men accessing their services will likely be perceived as perpetrators is really the most effective away of addressing violence against vulnerable people of either sex?

I hope you can show your support.

[1]www.prweb.com/releases/2013/5/prweb10741752.htm
[2]pb.rcpsych.org/content/35/1/33.1

[FlankShaftMcWap]

Father's who are not abusers should be no more offended by that poster than I would be at a "parents who are addicts" poster. I don't for a second assume that I'm being branded an addict because I'm a parent just because some parents need help with addiction. Why would a father assume such because some fathers are violent?

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

No I won't be signing either because, as I have said elsewhere about this, I think it's fine for a poster to be based around the facts of crime rates. In fact, I think it's a necessity.

If alternatively, you wanted to start a campaign where you worked with WA to challenge the silence around domestic abuse, and to proudly stand against the men who put both their wives and children in danger including their male DCs then I would be happy to support you. Ditto if you were working to publicise the Freedom Programme or courses for abusers. Or if you were challenging toxic macho stereotypes and conditioning which you think feed into abusive behaviour. They are all campaigns which I could get behind.

But I cannot support you whilst you are putting your energies into trying to fudge the statistics rather than actually working with relevant groups to change the statistics.

[KittyandTeal]

As someone who was kicked in the head until I bled from my ear and had a kettle of hot water thrown at me I'm gonna join the nope bench. Budge up

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

kitty.

I'm so sorry that happened.

[QuiteIrregular]

*lucky enough to have had...

(got mixed up with "lucky enough not to have experienced, and my hopeless typing did the rest...)

[MaillotRojoPan]

Brings in more benches....

bloke here, fwiw

OP, apart from all of the evidences you will have read here, the direct evidences re the proportion of DV between the sexes is massive, including how 'soon' a man will report DV (comparatively quickly) and the gravity of the assaults on men (light compared with the assaults on women. )You may also be surprised at the willingness of courts to reduce the assault charges faced by male abusers ( eg wounding evidences v often get dealt with as Sect 47 or even Common Assault) whereas there is never such a consideration toward women.

I've met hundreds of DVers in a prof. capacity. You're promotion of this issue would be a balm to them, providing a defence of 'see they do it too you know!. In real life esp in challenging those abusers, we could all do without that crap.

[AdoraBell]

It was my father, a brother and then a boyfriend, who were violent. Not my mother, any of my sisters or me.

So I'll join the others on the No bench, ta very much.

[VacantlyStaring]

OP, did you really expect some support for this from MN?

[MaillotRojoPan]

Well tbf he may have googled Dadsnet/support/fgroup etc and landed here.

In error.

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

My ex would be the first to say "hell yes, abusive men are disgusting shitty fathers...." Interestingly, when he was abusive to our dcs and I had to step in and stop him and then separate from him to protect the dcs, he still would put these types of things on FB. Clearly he did not think he was abusive. He told me it was the dcs' fault - they wound him up. A 3yo and a 6yo? Really?

Nope, I'll be on the bench too.

Just once, I'd like to see decent men stand up and say "These other men, these deadbeats that don't bother to support their children, that don't bother to help raise their children, or that abuse their partners and their children, these so-called men are not acceptable. They need to be called out in public, they need to understand how unacceptable they are." And then those men need to follow through with it. They should push for stricter laws and better child maintenance enforcement (one that doesn't cost the resident parent money!!). And socially shun those wretched men that do these things. Not sit back with a beer while they commiserate about how their wife doesn't know her place and just let it stand. Challenge them. Support women that are struggling with this and show that it's not men against women it's nonabusers against abusers.

Until they do, it's just dismissed as "hysterical womenfolk" and "man hating" when it's not. It's not "man hating" at all. It's "arse-hating."

Stop making WOMEN your enemy in this and direct your arrows at the specific men that are causing the problems. That's where the ire should be directed IMO.

[slug]

The top copper in Greenwich is a woman you know

[BreakingDad77]

Another no, even my generally ok father slapped mother hard after she'd got a bit drunk and sarky no doubt because she 'provoked' him.

Logically looking at the scale and severity of violence they are greatly different just look at the ONS UK stats.

Its not about demonising, as men we have a problem with violence against women and other men.

[SlightlyJaded]

OP People are not stupid. We know that the Majority of Dads are NOT abusive. But we also know that the vast majority of a abusers are men - often dads (and I can say that because we also know that abuse tends to escalate during pregnancy and after children are born)

So it us right that men are being targeted with this message. There is. nothing to stop a parallel campaign running that talks to abusive women -which is equally despicable but hugely in the minority.

(Sits on bench).

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

More than 20 years experance working in the field at a senior level and having consulted on several relevant legislation papers.

Nope. It's good to see a campaign that targets perpetrators

[BertieBotts]

No, you know, I think he might be garnering support for the fact that mumsnet is a nest of man-hating vipers.

Well, good. Let him link to this thread. Let people read it. It's ridiculously simplistic to claim that's what this is - if anybody has half a brain cell, they will read in a tiny bit more detail and see where that lazy assumption comes from, because yep, sometimes we do speak badly of certain fathers and if you read the threads for five seconds, then you'll see why. You might even learn something.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Oh and I'm a massive fan of none violent fathers, even had my families picture used on a families need fathers poster years ago and spent hours offering support to them.

[BertPuttocks]

Another no from me.

Instead of quibbling about the wording on a poster, why not use that energy to do something about the actual violence?

[maybebabybee]

I used to work in DV and now volunteer at a refuge. The sad truth is that while there are male victims of DV, the vast, vast majority of these victims are actually also perpetrators.

It usually follows a pattern of: woman physically/emotionally abused for months or years by man, woman eventually loses rag completely and hits man (and I am not condoning or excusing this by the way), man calls police on woman, woman gets record as abuser.

Of course, it does occasionally happen that men are the sole victims of DV at the hands of a woman but this is honestly not common.

Sorry if you don't like it, but that's how it is. I don't really understand why men can't admit that DV is by and large a male problem, because it is, however you twist the statistics, it just is. We would make far more progress here if the majority of men were willing to stand up and confront their peers who have abused/are abusing women rather than turning a blind eye. My mum has been in an abusive relationship with a colleague at work and when they split up all of his 'mates' just swallowed his total tripe about her being a crazy, hysterical bitch and how he was the innocent victim. None of which was true - she had the bruises and the psychological scars to prove it.

[PlaysWellWithOthers]

Careful everyone saying that they work in the field... you might get PMs from new joiners telling you that you're only saying that because you think it silences opposition... and explaining what rhetorical means.



had this happen yesterday when a rape apologist decided to message me when they no longer had a respectable argument on the thread

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

It's the "Not My Mate" syndrome. Some men are not willing to believe that their mate - the one they have a lager with, watch the footy with, play darts with - is abusive. Cranky, tired, nagged, crazy wife ... sure they'll pull out every excuse mentally that they can. Because the alternative is that the man they were mates with is actually a bully that abuses women or children. And that's a hard one to get their head around.

So they think "Not My Mate." And turn a blind eye. Even if it's right in front of them. And the "mate" sees that as tacit approval.

[SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed]

I can't sign, sorry. The poster doesn't stigmatise men, it stigmatises violent men, which is as it should be imo.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Anybody wants to send me messages like that then fine, I will copy and paste them on the thread with their user name.

Obviously I wouldn't for any other type of PM

[LovelyFriend]

According to the council's own estimates, 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men in your Borough will experience domestic abuse.

Of the 1 in 6 men experience abuse, how many were abused by other men or transwomen? Why are you assuming the perps are all women?

Don't you think that having to state NAM (not all men) before discussing or addressing any issue of violence against women is tiresome and boorish?

it really is.

[LovelyFriend]

I can count many many non-violent fathers among my friends who have no problem at all with that poster - because they know it's not about them, but it is about a genuine and real problem.