H "atich" and "haitch" - please explain!

[coppit]

So, the letter H...

"aitch" and "haitch" - are both correct (so you just pronounce it how you like) or is "haitch" actually incorrect.

Thanks!

Zeph - xpost!
My father is indeed a civilised man (definitely not pretentious though!)

This topic comes up over and over again on MN.
There is a lot of snobbery on this issue. Aitch certainly is standard English pronunciation. Haitch is perfectly acceptable regional dialect and standard Irish pronunciation.
It is one thing to want children growing up in southern England to pronounce the letter aitch. It is another to assume that those of us who pronounce it differently are automatically incorrect - we are not, it is standard for our dialect.

Drives me mad. DP says "haitch" and it makes me tear my hair out.

He also says "are you going to lay down" do DD and it annoys me because she's going to just copy him and his ignorant ways!

We were in the same class at school and his mum was a teacher so he can't even blame it on his upbringing/education!

I've heard the "jai" for "J" thing before. I think it was a Scottish colleague.

Definitely "aitch"

But what about "Waitrose" and "beetroot". My DH and all his family say Wai-rose and bee-root. There's a bloody "t" in the middle. They say it's a Kentish thing and everybody in Kent drops the middle t? I can't stand it

Call this pedants' corner?

No comments about OP spelling of 'aitch' in subject title!

Display - quite right. Only pretentious for those under 55. Or something. The more I think about it the more I prefer an 'otel. It's a French word after all. The English word is hostel.

purlease -there's a difference between spelling and mere typing errors

Anyone picked you up on your spelling of "please"?

yes, Zephir - my father is well over 55 and a most amenable chap

Lady

That may well be the case in Irish English but, for example, in London and the South East, it is brand new (last 20 years) and the only explanation I've ever found is that it's over-correction. I personally much prefer under-correction (A is for 'orses, glottal stop in Waitrose etc) to over-.

interesting about the "an h" thing.
i never realised it depended on the aspiration of the "h".

ooh, the amount of times you could get someone telling you off for dropping your "h"!!

the glottal stop is not only for the south east: it's in every regional pronunciation.
it's down to the under-pronunciation again.

MIFLAW - there is a distinction to be made however between:

1. pronouncing the letter as haitch, which as I said is generally a matter of regional dialect, though it has more widely - and
2. incorrectly aspirating the letter (h)aitch at the beginning of words where it does not belong. I thought the discussion on this thread was about the first scenario rathe than the second, which is a completely different issue.

NappyShedSal - I'm kentish and pronounce the T in both of those. SO do all my family.

It's AITCH. Only losers say haitch

I am indeed talking about the first issue.

However, I believe that, with the apparent exception of your dialect (thinking back 20 years, I cannot remember a single other dialect where this was the case) the first issue is an example of the second issue, i.e. the word "aitch" is incorrectly aspirated to "haitch"; and that this is a result of over-correction, brought about by insecurity in one's own speech, and so part of a wider trend which has seen the proliferation of "between you and I" and of the use of "myself" to mean "me".

So, on this second point, I prefer under-correction than over- ; that is, I prefer people to drop aitches when they are there ("'ello 'Arry, 'ow's it 'angin'?") to people who inroduce aitches when there is none (as, I contend, in saying "haitch" for "aitch").

Just my opinion, of course.

It's aitch, and why have we started talking about the past using the present tense, where did "we was" come from, why are we now measuring rainfall in mm, not even cm, which I don't like, but at least it's an appropriate unit and does the use of the American billion (a thousand million, a trillion is a thousand billion etc.), while more convenient than the British billion which is mathematically more elegant (a billion is a million million, a trillion is a billion cubed, a quadrillion a million ^4 etc) , irritate anyone other than me

Sorry, I said a billion cubed, I meant a million cubed

OK, I understand the point you are making, but I disagree with your analysis. I think rather than stemming from overcorrection, as you believe, the haitch pronunciation has been brought into standard English from my dialect and other regional dialects. (I'm interested in why you use "apparent" in this context.)
Personally I think the irritation over haitch has a lot to do with class snobbery. Are you sure that your preference for not aspirating aitch where it ought to be aspirated over aspirating it where it ought not to be isn't just a manifestation of the type of snobbery that Jilly Cooper famously observed where the upper middle class prefers the working class to the aspirational (or aspirating) Hyacinth Bouquets of the lower middle class?

the haitch has developed separately from Irish in this country.

it is not just because they've heard an Irish person saying it like that.

and i'm pretty sure the class snobbery is the reason for the manifestation of the haitch, not the irritation of the haitch has come from class snobbery

I say Aitch and not haitch, and I'm Scottish.
I also don't say Jai for J, although I have friends - mainly west coasters who say Jai. They also say Ay-pple instead of A-pple

Am i allowed to try and move this debate on and ask whether "sixth" or "sicth" is the correct pronunciation of 6th, or am I better off starting a new thread?

This is my first visit to pedants' corner in a while, and I'm glad that it didn't disappoint

The letter H is pronounced as heis in Irish hence why most Irish people say haitch and probably true for scots as well.

It's sixth, surely, megonthemoon.

DH has started saying sicth and it really grates on me.

OMG, not another haitch/aitch thread. It's the new fruit shoots.

As we've determined in many many other threads like this, some people find it annoying when people say haitch. Some people don't know it's aitch. Some people like me (Irish) really try not to say haitch, but it always comes out like that and we're really really sorry to offend anyone but we're not doing it on purpose and we really really aren't thick and ignorant.

Btw, Haitch haitch haitch haitch haitch.

Ner ner.

i say sixth too misshardbroom, but seem to be in a minority yet i think people who say sicth always sound like they have a lisp or are trying to be posh. what's wrong with the x?

i say aitch despite growing up with a mum who says haitch as she's irish but i think cos i grew up with both, i just see them as alternatives rather than right/wrong so i'm amused that there is such strong feeling about it (and i'm normally an uber-pedant)!

Nappy - 'But what about "Waitrose" and "beetroot". My DH and all his family say Wai-rose and bee-root. There's a bloody "t" in the middle. They say it's a Kentish thing and everybody in Kent drops the middle t?'

It's not, I don't, and it drives me mad too!