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Pedants' corner
Original poster

Pedantry at parents' evening

177 replies

GooseyLoosey · 25/02/2009 08:43

Was parents' evening last night.

All ds's (5) books were out for us to look at. We picked up his literacy book and read comment praising his use of "the coma".

I was happy to let the spelling go, but try as I might I could not see any "comas" in his work.

We then sat down and talk to the teacher who begins to tell us how good his written work is and that he knows just where to put the comma in "isn't". The penny drops - she means apostrophe.

Dh and I tried not to say anything at the time as she really is a good teacher, but it was really hard.

OP posts:
TinaTuna · 25/02/2009 14:50

I have interviwed primary teachers and to be honest the most gifted ones we have taken on ( and I mean of a nationalyl recognised outstanding status) had mediocre to poor school results.

apostrophe · 25/02/2009 14:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

IorekByrnison · 25/02/2009 14:52

I should say that I wouldn't find a single instance like this particularly depressing, but if mumsnet is to be believed it does seem to be rather common amongst teachers, and I think that's a great shame.

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 25/02/2009 14:54

Ooh, thanks Ingles - what a combination "perfect punctuation" and "great grammar" would make for show and tell. I am tempted, I really am.

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myredcardigan · 25/02/2009 14:56

It is poor form but it's too late to do anything now. You should have looked puzzled at the time then expressed a 'lightbulb' moment and said, 'oh you mean the apostrophe!'

It would do neither your DS nor her any good to make a big thing of it now.

I'm surprised they've been learning about apostrophes at 5 as it's Year 3 work. The spelling mistake is one thing but not knowing an apostroph from a comma when talking to a parent is quite another.

However, it doesn't make her a bad teacher, not at Foundation level. If she was a junior teacher, I'd say yes, it's a problem but not in Reception. I teach upper juniors. No way could I teach Reception. Totally different skills IMHO. As a parent, I'd always choose a kind, nurturing,friendly Foundation Stage teacher over one with a better grasp of grammar. Always!

Is English her first language?

stuffitllama · 25/02/2009 14:59

There shouldn't be a choice between a teacher of spelling and grammar who can actually spell and use grammar, and a teacher who can engage a child's imagination.

You can't teach your child that teachers can't be trusted.. but how do you address it with the teacher without provoking irritation?

It's just ridiculous that parents are faced with these alternatives. I'm just too abrasive on this issue to give advice. It irritates me so much.

He may well be too young to be learning this. But he is learning it, and he is learning the wrong versions, and he will have to unlearn and relearn the correct approach.

ahundredtimes · 25/02/2009 15:01

I dislike pedantry though, it's so mean and little and law-abiding, and just a bit sniffy. Though I love words and I love language.

I think it's unrealistic to expect teachers or anybody at all to be perfect all of the time. It's tricky this language of ours - and she's clearly got other strengths, and probably more important ones for a 5 y-o too.

Having said that, I probably would have said during the parents evening 'it's an apostrophe not a comma that's with two m's'. Then I'd have hated myself for it because it would have made her feel stupid.

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 25/02/2009 15:03

She doesn't teach Reception, ds is in Yr 1. However I do take your point and agree - I do consider her to be a good teacher.

OP posts:
Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 25/02/2009 15:08

I dislike excessive pedantry too. However, I wonder where the line between pedantry and acceptable standards of teaching lies? Do I just accept that she cannot spell or punctuate a sentence or do I make a fuss and point it out?

I have always done the former (and will no doubt continue to do so), but I wonder if this means that I am colluding in a system which allows children to believe that an inability to spell etc. is just fine.

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myredcardigan · 25/02/2009 15:10

No, you shouldn't have to choose. The parents of my class don't!

However, in the wider scheme of things, she is obviously a very good Early Years teacher. He clearly is not being taught aposrophes otherwise she would likely have some literature to hand which (hopefully) would highlight her mistake.

I do agree that the government need to raise the bar by raising university entrance standards. I got ABB at A-level, went to a Russell Group university, then college for my PGCE. I know I teach alongside and earn the same as others who went to poly on EE. Having said all that, they're by no means all bad teachers. In fact the one teacher I have taught alongside who was struggling with the job, was a Cambridge graduate.

Bucharest · 25/02/2009 15:16

It doesn't make her a bad teacher. It doesn't even make her bad at English.
However, as far as I'm concerned, not knowing the name, or spelling thereof, of basic punctuation marks is pretty

ahundredtimes · 25/02/2009 15:17

Well I guess it depends on the context doesn't it? Her teaching is clearly well above standard. If the weekly spellings are mis-spelt then point that out. How do we know she can't punctuate? Perhaps she can, but just uses the wrong terms? Though FWIW my dc all called it a hanging comma too at this stage. There was a comma, a hanging comma and a full stop. Was a struggle for us all to get our heads around

IorekByrnison · 25/02/2009 15:19

Looking on the bright side, she did praise him correctly for "isn't", even if she got the term wrong. It would have been much worse if she'd congratulated him for writing "is'nt" or something.

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 25/02/2009 15:20

Ahh, but I do know she can't punctuate - I have read her letters to parents (at least I have always assumed that she writes them and not the school office, but perhaps I am doing her an injustice).

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myredcardigan · 25/02/2009 15:22

Yes IB, I have once seen a jotter where the teacher has corrected a child for writing its without an apostrophe when the child wasn't using it as a contraction of it is. Inaccurate corrections are not good especially at junior level.

IorekByrnison · 25/02/2009 15:23

I'd go with the guerrilla grammar leaflet drops.

Original poster
GooseyLoosey · 25/02/2009 15:25

LOL IorekByrnison, I now have an image of dh and I sneaking about the school after dark dressed in black with balaclavas on, all in the name of good grammar.

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IorekByrnison · 25/02/2009 15:26

Well someone's got to do it.

myredcardigan · 25/02/2009 15:27

GL, teachers usually make quick jottings and send them to the office for typing. School admin staff normally have better punctuation than the teachers.

I'd expect whoever was typing to correct any silly mistakes I'd made and I always check letters through before handing them out in case our secretary has made any silly mistake. Everyone makes them at some point.

Scorta · 25/02/2009 15:30

Ask you son what the ' in isn't is - see if he knows.

I cannot spell and I hate it but I have tried very hard adn still I am a rubbish speller

If I had to write on the board

edam · 25/02/2009 16:01

I think it's shameful that we as a society are too inhibited to address a teacher who makes basic mistakes in spelling and grammar. A teacher, for heaven's sake!

Would it be OK for a teacher to tell the children 2 + 2 = 5? Or 'Bonjour' means 'good night' in Italian?

Anyone could forgive the odd error but it seems Goosey's ds's teacher is generally ignorant (confusing "too" and "to" and writing about "practicing" spellings). A good teacher who knows they have a weakness in this area should be using strategies to address that - such as brushing up their spelling or looking things up in the dictionary.

All this nonsense about 'oh, it's OK in the first few years, we can correct it later' is so lame. It is downright wrong to teach 2 + 2 = 5 at any stage.

BonsoirAnna · 25/02/2009 16:18

"that doesn't mean she's stupid or illiterate or not up to the job."

It does mean, though, that she is ignorant about the very basic skills she is supposed to be imparting to the children she is meant to teach.

edam · 25/02/2009 16:51

Following on from Anna, it means her ability in literacy leaves a lot to be desired. And she's failing in one of the core skills of the job. If I applied to work as a dentist, or a zoo-keeper, or anything else, I'd expect to have to meet the basic requirements. Not have people going 'oh dear but never mind, you are very good at the other bits'.

ahundredtimes · 25/02/2009 17:05

But it's different to dentistry. She isn't just teaching literacy, she's doing loads and loads of other things too. Though it is not impossible that a dentist might confess that they are shit hot at drilling, but that their teeth cleaning technique leaves something to be desired.

She isn't teaching the children when to use 'to' and 'too' either - she isn't wilfully or stupidly teaching them a lesson in 'to' or 'too' as far as I understand it, those are the mistakes she makes in her letters home - I don't think it does equate to the 2 + 2 = 5.

If Goosey had read her child's literacy book, and had seen that the children was being actively taught the wrong or incorrect information, then she'd have to speak up.

In her letters to parents, she evidently can neither spell nor punctuate though.

I think Goosey had better get a hold of her child's books and look through them again. Then we'll know whether the teacher is capable of teaching literacy or not.

mrsruffallo · 25/02/2009 17:16

I wouldn't be impressed by these rather fundamental errors.
I think you should have dealt with it on the spot, it would be a little awkward to address it now.
I would stop short of going to the head though!

Op's son is in yr one, so not an Early Years teacher btw