Radio 3 just now, appalling 😮

[Denim4ever]

The 'expert' the presenter is speaking to just said 'on mass' not 'en masse'. She also keeps failing to pronounce 'the' as 'thee' before a vowel.

Not according to dictionaries.
on, preposition: uk /ɒn/, us /ɑːn/
en masse, adverb: uk /ˌɒ̃ ˈmæs/, us /ˌɑ̃ː ˈmæs/

I’ll happily accept I may be wrong but I do pronounce en slightly differently to on. A flatter (if that’s the right word) N sound - sort of like in the word ennui, which I wouldn’t pronounce exactly like “on wee”.

However, I’m not sure I’d notice if someone said it “on mass”, and I don’t think it’s really wrong in English.

It might be a French expression but when speaking English is doesn’t not need to be pronoun Exactly as a French person would say it, unless of course, you want to sound like a pretentious twat. For example, if you are saying bête noir, it’s an English version or noir, rather than a full on ‘noir’.

In English it’s pronounced ‘on mass’. The French ‘en’ is a sound we don’t have. You might as well rail against people not saying spaghetti the Italian way. Just rest easy in the comfy knowledge that you know the proper way!

@ShesTheAlbatross , ennui is not the best example, because of the double n. Encore is probably a better example. ˈɒŋkɔː

@Reportingfromwherever , I say bête noir as bet nwar, not as bête noir.

Could I ask about this bit:

She also keeps failing to pronounce 'the' as 'thee' before a vowel.

So I were saying 'I ate the apple' I'm supposed to pronounce it as 'thee'? I wouldn't do that. I'm Scottish though so maybe it's an English thing?

It sounds the same though - particularly if your French accent isn't all that. En just sounds like on, but with a softer n sound if you want to be poncey about it, which I wouldn't personally.

Do 'I ate the apple' and 'I ate the banana' sound different to you?

I would say the ‘en’ like the o in song

I'd go for something like the o in horse (without the r). I'm sure someone can come up with a better example than mine.

Not 'oh', but more like the 'o' in 'horse' (until I think of a better example). 'Masse' is also slightly different to 'mass', with a somewhat flatter vowel and dampened 'ss'.

Didn't hear this but I heard Ludovic Tezier described as a tenor twice on the Breakfast programme, SHOCKING!

I thought the 'en' was pronounced 'on'.

By whom?

Tom McKinney, I think.

@BrickBiscuit no they sound the same to me

I'd contact the BBC.
Complaints | Contact the BBC

Even I can recognise that he's a baritone.

Do they sound like 'I ate thee apple' and 'I ate thee banana', or 'I ate ther apple' and 'I ate ther banana'? Or something else?

It's probably neither, @BrickBiscuit . The in 'the end' to me doesn't sound like 'thee end' and 'ther banana' would have a rhotic r.

I think the poster meant 'the' rhyming with the 'di' in 'di Caprio' not Dee.

Even if the OP made sense, of all the things to get worked up about R3 this wouldn’t be it. The sudden’ proliferation of movie and game theme music on the other hand…what is that all about?!

@BrickBiscuit they definitely don't sound like ther as I have a Rhotic R in my accent as @Pedant5corner notes.

If I listen carefully to how I sat it there a tiny difference between 'the apple' and 'the banana' but its tiny. And I've never noticed it when other people speak.

So what I am saying is that, even for Pedants Corner, this seems a very odd thing to be upset by. And I say that as someone who has her own pedantry

I hope nobody's upset. 'Thee' and 'ther' (or 'thuh' etc) are sometimes used to indicate the difference between 'the (vowel)' and 'the (consonant)' in English dialects, not to suggest literal pronunciation. The difference can be quite pronounced - and may be reversed to convey emphasis - in RP for example. While the ('thee') opposite may be true in the ('ther') regions. Isn't 'oddly upset by it' a very definition of pedantry?

Yes. I say 'on' with the 'n' being something which uses my tongue and my palate, but my 'en' further back in my mouth, veering towards the throat, and with the tongue not touching anything..

Never mind fake French accent - an examiner once said it was quite good.
Swank your way out of here, oh, un-humble one.

especially as 'en masse' was presumably being spoken by a non-native speaker of English.

I meant French, of course. D'oh! 😄