More apostrophe confusion

[melpomene]

I just had to write about the addresses of Citizens Advice Bureaux (plural). Should it be "Citizens Advice Bureaux' addresses", or do different rules apply? X followed by an apostrophe doesn't look quite right.

[MyEye]

Had to bump this. It has been worrying me for two hours.

[AMumInScotland]

I don't think there's any special rules for plural words that end in an X - it just looks a bit odd .

[2sugars]

I don't think so either, but I don't know why. Why did you think it should be there?

[fryalot]

could you not just put "addresses of Citizens' Advice Bureaux"?

[scampadoodle]

Sorry, can't help - that is a toughie! I reckon it's X apostrophe. But is the plural definitely x? It would be in French but... it looks right though.

[AMumInScotland]

They certainly use Citizens Advice Bureaux as the plural on their website - I couldn't see any apostrophes though....

[missingtheaction]

tough one - my vote would be "Citizens Advice Bureaux' addresses", but i admit it looks a bit odd!

[Bink]

no, I think it should be "Citizens' Advice Bureaux's addresses"

like it should be

the children's clothes
the geese's beaks
the gateaux's imitation creme fillings

[MargeSimpsonMyAlterEgo]

Bink - surely the x is instead of an s (the problem of course is that it's french) - aren't children & geese different, because the whole word changes? I think its the Bureaux' addresses. Or perhaps it should be the CABs' addresses?

[MargeSimpsonMyAlterEgo]

oops didn't mean to sound anti-french. I love the language.

[Bink]

It's specifically addressed - well, mentioned & not-very-committally skirted - in the Wikipedia article on apostrophes, as below:

"For possessive plurals of words ending in silent x, z, or s, the few authorities that address the issue at all call for an added s, and require that the apostrophe precede the s: The Loucheux's homeland is in the Yukon; Compare the two Dumas's literary achievements. As usual in punctuation, the best advice is to respect soundly established practice, and beyond that to strive for simplicity, logic, and especially consistency."

It appears that the point Wikipedia's making is about whether the plural signal (the "s" sound) is voiced or not - so if it's silent then you need the extra "'s". I think the point is more simply that possessives of standardly formed plurals that end is "s" take the apostrophe after the "s"; anything else adds "'s". The example given in The Economist style book is "media's" (for instance).

[MargeSimpsonMyAlterEgo]

I thought that the extra s was only with names (Dumas, Leucheux, Jones) - eg the Jones's car... and then I would pronounce it.

[Bink]

Do you know, I've never thought how to write a possessive for the Jones family collectively ... we had a thread on here recently about Mr and Mrs Rose, who write reviews together, and how we refer to those - and it seemed to be a good consensus that it was "the Roses' work" ... but what if they had been called Mr and Mrs Peters ... I guess we would write "the Peters's work"

But the rule for bureaux isn't a names rule, it's an ordinary rule about non-standard plural formation (words which just change their ending - bureaux, gateaux, media, verrucae, kibbutzim - being all equally as non-standard (for the purposes of the rule) as children and geese)

[missingtheaction]

doesn't anyone have a Fowler? i don't, and Lynne Truss doesn't seem to cover it either. Oh dear, I really didn't realise i was such an obsessive.

[scampadoodle]

I have a feeling that Lynne Truss is pro apostrophe s when the name ends in s but she admits there's no hard or fast rule. DS1's name ends in s & I always write 's with that.

I think either Bink or MargeSimpson are right re Bureaux

[legoleia]

I don't know my vote is for "Bureaux's"

It just looks more sensible. In my opinion.

[legoleia]

Decides to leave pedants' corner due to the quite shocking grammar in my last post. And starting a sentence with "But". And not having a capital letter for my name.

Will come back to check though, when truly qualified pedant comes along to settle the case!

[scampadoodle]

But legoleia, it's perfectly correct to begin a sentence with 'but'; it's merely a matter of taste. In my opinion.

Don't leave! We pedants must stick together!