Forgive us our trespasses

[NorkyPies]

For the Lord's Prayer, I'm sure we learned 'as we forgive THEM that trespass against us' at school, but elsewhere I always hear 'as we forgive THOSE that trespass against us'.

It raises an interesting question: 'them' is the object of the verb 'forgive', and 'those' is the subject of 'trespass'. In other words, the same entity (them/those) is both object and subject at the same time, so a choice has to be made.

I don't think it makes much difference, grammatically. THOSE THAT is short for "those people that", which is subject + relative. THEM THAT is also subject + relative.

We learnt 'those' but when you translate it from the original Aramaic it's all about serenity.

here

According to Wikipedia, 'those' is an early Catholc version, and 'them' is a 1622 Anglican version.

That's an interesting page, faerie. It makes me wish I understood the Arabic.

In Scotland we say, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Technically, there's no such thing as trespassers here.

That's close to the Latin, which is debita nostra.

I wonder how the Latin got so far from the Arabic serenity though.

Trust the Scots to be focussing on money.

Do they really forgive their debtors, then? :)

The Aramaic original is a poem! - mainly rhyming couplets. That's intriguing.

I thought it was 'those who' when you use 'those', anyway?

I'm sure we said 'those who,' back in the seventies < hazy memory >.
Catholics.

Spooky crossed post!

We say "those who tresspass against us" (as in, now, today, not just remembering back to childhood). this is the case in the Methodist Church I attend and also in the CofE School my dd attends.

Yes, it always seems to be 'those who'. I was mistakenly generalising from my childhood variant that has 'them that'. Glad to realise that my own variant is a pukka one (1662 Book of Common Prayer - thanks Invicta) and not my faulty memory.

Maybe that's why they changed it to the modern version, where it's "sin" not "trespass." I'm always irrationally irritated by this.

aha!
i know the answer!

it's "as we forgive them in 1662 book of common prayer.

amended in 1928 to those, adopted by the 1980 Alternative Service Book and used in 2000 Common Worship.