Struggling with YA daughter after no contact - bad relationship has anyone healed?

[Estrangement]

She is at uni. She is ND as is every other member of our family. She is incredibly bright and controlling and destructive. She is at a top university doing a competitive course and excelling at it. No drink, drugs etc

She’s had therapy and counselling over th years as always struggled socially mainly within family - she’s perfect at school, in public, at uni etc . It’s a toxic cycle of her bullying of family members and making them cry - she’s incredibly articulate and wants a verbal argument etc Last weekend it happened within minutes of her coming in through the door, she’s intelligent and she doesn’t do this at uni or with her friends. This argument was vile and had me sobbing on the floor.

She came home last weekend with conditions in place and then mockingly overrode all of those conditions. She then wanted to argue her case and refused to leave when she does this she literally follows me from room to room. Her ASC counsellor says we have to say no to this. Boundaries must be enforced.

On previous occasions we have backed down as she is good at articulating remorse. This time after years of toll on my mental health I enforced the boundary. She did leave but it took two hours and the boundary now in place is 4 weeks of no contact and not coming home. Within days she was phoning at 1 am - long ranting emails. I’ve had panic attacks. I have cried for a week. She’s been vile. I’m recovering post surgery and not at work but it is all consuming grief. She deleted hundreds of much loved photos off shared devices all to get a response and is playing the ‘we need to talk to heal card’. My husband has said no this time - the boundary stays. No contact. But I have had three phone calls ranting. Messages telling me she loves me and needs me. But I have nothing left I’m empty I’m grief stricken.

Her two siblings want no contact. They love her but it’s enough now. They need a break. She is now threatening permanent break and has pretty much blocked me on everything. Then she unblocks and sends me something.

I do not need to be told she is ND and needs love and support or that she is young etc I have tried so hard with boundaries and rules I am broken totally broken.

How do I get through this? How the hell do we navigate NC and boundaries? My heart is breaking

Hey. I just wanted to send my sympathy. My youngest can be like this. He literally follows me round when I get in from work being unpleasant and nasty. I often think because he has had to mask all day and be relatively ‘normal’ and he has to let it out in some way. He does trot off after a while though and sort of give up. Drives me nuts. When he was at university it was a lovely break (he has graduated)

So in some respects I admire you for your boundaries and putting things into place to protect yourself. As with every consequence you need to be consistent. Don’t reply, don’t act upset, don’t feed into it. Bloody hard though isn’t it?

I don't have an answer unfortunately. But I have in the past gone NC with my ND DC when I was very ill and they went on the attack at me (verbally, we didn't live together). At times, and for you this is one of those times, you have to put yourself first. It's hard. And it makes your recuperation harder. But what is the alternative?

There was a 2nd occasion when my relationship with my child almost broke totally. For practical reasons, it couldn't be ended there and then, and to a certain extent, we have managed to come back from the break. But not totally. We will never have that mother child relationship that we once had again. I know what they are capable of now and won't make myself vulnerable in that way again.

I think you just have to maintain NC until you are in a place with a bit more mental strength. Right now, you and your DH hold the NC. She has to understand her actions have consequences.

I have tried to go out today with my youngest child and husband and have a lovely day but I wasn’t at all - I just felt totally disconnected. I felt on the verge of sobbing my heart out in public. I’ve come home and my elderly dog isn’t great he’s panting and struggling a bit. He is really getting on but he is struggling tonight. He’s eating, got energy, drinking etc he is very unsettled. I don’t even want to go there - he is her dog really. She picked him as a puppy. She phone me three times this afternoon / evening I let them all to voicemail. My husband has gone out to a meeting with friends and I’m just sitting here with the youngest trying hard not to cry.

How do I ever recover from this? Will she ever change? Can she change? How would ever know or trust her again? We were so close she was so close to me growing up and I respected her growing into an adult and gaining independence and she repaid me by foul behaviour in my own home - my sanctuary.

I had a very traumatic childhood so this has been very triggering for me - DH has helped me see this. He had a loving upbringing but she’s taken a huge toll on his mental health too.

Yes it is exhausting and it has made me mentally unwell. The toxic cycle going round and round and round. It’s horrid really horrid. Her life is entwined with ours. She went and is in halls in the nearest city an hour on the bus but was coming back regularly and has kept a job in the town cafe. So it feels like that whole area is a no go area, she comes to the pub quiz on a Sunday night and is part of the team she begged to join when she turned 18. I don’t want to go if she is there. I’m absolutely dead inside. I’ve had messages asking me if I’m still booking an Easter trip for us both - we were sorting dates and time off work before these latest ‘attacks’ as I was trying to give her one on one attention once a year on a trip. She’s also asked if she is still coming on the big family trip to the USA booked for August, honestly I don’t know what to say or answer with

Sometimes kindly you have to be honest. I wonder if you are giving her too much oxygen and power. I can stand up to DS3 when I am feeling strong and not knackered from work. He always senses my weakness and hones in on it!
Sometimes I bite back :)

I think from what you have described keeping your peace is the best thing. Not responding or having a ready made response- the problem with mobiles as well is that they allow ready made access to someone (regardless of how they are feeling)

Just some thoughts….
does she deserve one on one time and a nice trip?
if her sibs are fed up with her will they want her on holiday?

Maybe you need to listen to your DH and carry through the consequences of poor behaviour. Eg ‘ are you still going away’ (she seems to be testing your boundaries again!) response: ‘after last weekend why would I want to do that?’

She is an adult and you sound done.

Also don’t use the cafe and don’t go to the quiz.
enjoy your space and peace and quiet.
let the penny drop that you have boundaries and will stick to them.

Thank you. @stomachamelon that’s useful.

My husband has said no we are going to the quiz they are all our friends and our good friends from work she asked to join at aged 18 and was allowed - she behaves lovely there. But DH won’t hesitate to leave and tell everyone why, so we want to give her a heads up in case it goes south. She’s been silent on the pub team quiz chat and DH has told everyone that we (me and him will be there) she replies separately on the chat according to her availability.

No I do not want to go away with her at all at the moment. What spent a couple of thousands pounds on her? We go and do stuff she wants to do.

Normally the toxic cycle is asking her to leave, then the next day there will be a drama or a sobbing phone call saying she is lonely or depressed or something else panicking about something and then we end up picking up the pieces. She is ASC but so is everyone else in this family and she doesn’t do it to her friends etc at all.
She has good and close friends but if she ever mocked one of them - she would be dropped and she knows it. When we already empty and with zero in the tank we pick up her drama. The other night - I think it was Wednesday and she rang at nearly 1 am crying and saying she was upset and couldn’t sleep and wanted to explain her actions and why she had done what she did- nothing is ever her fault or her responsibility. She will say I’m sorry you feel like that but actually I meant this or I didn’t realise you were sensitive on that or whatever even when she is screaming in my face and mocking me and I have asked her to stop. So far today is quiet and we are doing the normal roast dinner without her.

We’ve been out this afternoon.

I have drafted:

I asked for space to heal, but your recent actions—blocking me while simultaneously ignoring my boundaries and ringing me—have made this situation harder. To ensure we both have clarity, I am setting the following terms:
The Pub Quiz: As this was established with our friends. I ask that you do not attend for the time being.
Half Term: …..(Older sister name inserted here) has been asked to look after the dogs for the entire week. You are no longer required for any part of dog sitting during this period whilst we are all away. (She was dog sitting one weekend).
Future Travel: I will not be booking or paying for any joint trips, until our situation is stable and no longer toxic.

Trip to the USA in the summer: A decision on if you will be coming on this trip will be deferred until closer to the date.

Communication: While I am open to talking later, my current boundaries are not up for negotiation and I will not be explaining or justifying these decisions further.
I expect these boundaries to be respected.

Argh I never thought I would be looking at an early retirement like this. I never thought my little family would be like this - she was so lovely as a child up to about 14.

So hard to know what to say. But I feel like i understand your daughter somewhat. I think she wants to be close but is struggling with it. The comment about pp being unwell and autistic dd being awful, yeah that also correlates, of course its completely awful for you and of course you definitely need to protect yourself. But I will say she will feel this very deeply, sometimes when we struggle to communicate at least conflict is an interaction and she might be hoping for a resolution and care after that. Its extremely difficult on both sides I know.

I wouldn’t text her right now @Estrangement, you’re too upset. 💐

Your DH sounds able to carry the emotional load for you both so please let him, he can communicate with her if necessary. You focus on your own wellness and healing.
Being ND doesn’t give your DD the right to emotionally and mentally abuse you. The rest of the family has said enough of this behavior and you know they’re right.

I assume it’s your house? When she kicks off, tell her “No… we’re not doing this. Go outside until you can control your behaviour and your words.”
Every time. If she becomes destructive, then she pays to fix the damage or she can get TF out.
Explain to her that as an adult, she is not entitled to live in your home, but you LET her. For that to continue she needs to start living within these boundaries :- No damaging people or property. (Physically or verbally.) Make her value your home by contributing to her costs - charge board. (I saved the board I charged my kids and gave it to them when they moved out.)

When you say nearly everyone is autistic in the family are you including yourself and her dad .
Because that will be difficult to navigate..a parent and child both being autistic .
Sometimes you may be overreacting yourself with your boundaries,which in turn sets her of even more because she feels pushed away .
Your way of dealing with her seems very OTT ,to me , sending messages telling her where she can and can't go
If she has PDA your messages of ,no family quiz,no contact,no dog sitting,will be a red rag to a bull ...no wonder she goes in to meltdown desperately trying to contact you ..
Your acting just as controlled as she is ,but in a different way
She's screaming at you ,and contacting you when you have said not to
But your controlling when she is allowed home ,and what she is allowed to do ( pub / dog )
Your displaying similar behaviour
And both massively upsetting the other
The difference being
She is your child ,and you are an adult
And whilst you are both clearly autistic,you have had more years on the planet to navigate Iife and understand autism and PDA ..she is still learning
Whilst your boundaries may possibly work for a NT child ,they most definitely will not work for a ND one especially one with PDA ,which will be why she can't stick to your boundaries.
You need a new approach to the whole situation
I am diagnosed autistic and my adult DC are too.

Surely this would all be relevant if the daughter was like this with everyone?
But OP has stated she is only like it with her family, not her friends at Uni, not her colleagues at her job at the cafe.
So, to some extent, the daughter can control how she behaves around others because she knows it’s unacceptable and would leave her without friends, without a job.

She’s 18 and an adult, she can’t treat her parents so poorly that she’s affecting their mental health and get away with it just because she’s ND.

What do many parents of autistic children say .......
"The school can't see anything wrong "
"My child behaves at school ,but erupts when he gets home "
It's called masking to hold it all together,
and it's what autistic people do to cope with life
Then they erupt (like a coke bottle that's been shaken up) ,at the people they love , because that is a safe space for them
Children with autism develop much later mentally than NT children
So yes she is 18
But very clearly developmentally much younger
She will definitely be masking at uni and hugely struggling with the social demands on her
Just because she is academically able to manage uni work
Does not mean she is socially ready for uni ,or developmentally ready for uni

I’m aware they mask and unleash at home but does that need to come out in a cruel and sadistic way of mocking her family while they’re crying?
Tantrums, screaming and the like, yes that’s usual but to taunt her family while they’re on the floor sobbing is not something I’d allow.

Ah ok
Do you have an autistic child ,that that approach works well with then ??.
Parenting an autistic child is a completely different rule book , especially one with PDA ...what you would expect to work with a NT child simply does not with a ND one .
It's hard to understand if you haven't lived through it ..
My own parents response to any difficult behaviour,was to knock it out of me .
Thankfully generations are now more aware ,and there are so many wonderful books available these days to help parents navigate autism,in themselves and their child

I have an AuDHD daughter.

my advice:

back off
don’t get involved.

mine is now much older and is starting to grow up.

back off but not in a personal way, in a I’m supporting you to grow way.

so with mine, we pretty much stopped doing holidays at all with her and said “you are very much becoming an adult now. If you’d like to travel that’s great but we aren’t doing family trips anymore”.

you can mute WhatsApp’s with her on.

basically, stop giving her any (negative) reaponse.

filter her emails into a separate folder so they don’t impact you as much.

set your phone on do not disturb overnight and if necessary tell her that you are very sorry but you need your sleep.

in my experience this goes down much better than if it is made personal.

she will also with time learn to identify her own emotions and start to be able to control them.

i’m not saying this will be an easy process.
mine came back after uni and I did go on holiday with her as I thought she’d grown up enough for it and I regretted it.

You completely ignored what I put.
Are you telling me your experience is that it is completely normal for an autistic child to taunt, mock and be cruel to her parents?

OP is stating she feels broken and disconnected and your advice is for her to read a book and that she’s being unfair to put in boundaries with her 18 year old child.

IMO, society doesn’t work that way. Having tantrums, feeling frustrated and lashing out would be expected but following someone around the house taunting them, mocking them, laughing while they’re sobbing is cruel and doesn’t need to be accepted.
She can find another outlet to unleash on, her therapist can surely help with finding her other ways to unmask.
Her Mum is not her punchbag.

No my response was to you
saying her behaviour was not something you would allow..
. implying that it is easy for the op to stop it ..
Because if you would not allow such behaviour.....,must be ok for the op to not allow it .
I'm just saying it's not that easy and just because you say you wouldn't allow it , doesn't mean that's going to stop it .
You clearly just want to argue,which is not what the op needs
She's here for support
So I'm not going to reply to you again

Have you done family therapy? It doesn’t sound like therapy on her own has helped unfortunately. I don’t think she should go on the expensive holiday.

Correct, OP is here for support.
You called her OTT, you said she was overreacting, I did not say those things.

I wouldn’t allow my child to be cruel to me in my own home, no.
I haven’t implied anything.
Since when is going NC with your child ever easy?
OP is on her knees feeling broken and you called her OTT.
OP is well within her rights to go NC to build back some strength.

@Octavia64 ’s advice to the OP seemed much more helpful IMO.

I’m sorry OP! You sound exhausted and broken.
im not sure I’d send that text. Perhaps your DH could hold this communication? You’ve said no contact for 4 weeks. Don’t contact her. It’s confusing to do so and once you’ve broken your own boundary you cannot expect her to adhere to it.
get DH to tell her youre upset so she should organise another Easter break. no need for dog sitting due to NC.

@Purplepelican3 What’s jumping out at me is that the entire family is saying that her behavior has gone too far and things have to change, they need to have some boundaries.

To me, that sounds as if they feel that they need to protect their wife/Mum from serious abuse. It’s a case of protecting a victim against an abuser- and it doesn’t matter why her DD is abusing her (autism, lack of maturity), it has to stop.

Right now, no contact is giving them all a chance to reassess and work out how to go forward.