Financial awareness completely lacking!

[Thiswontendwell]

My adult (in his 20s) DS has come back home to live having previously lived ‘in’ at his job. I am happy to accommodate him, it’s nice to to have him home even though I don’t see much of him due to the hours he works.
The issue is that he is completely financially clueless. I have always had to bail him out a bit and his track record of paying me back hasn’t been great - it’s been a bit of a struggle tbh and has got in the way of us getting on. I don’t ask for any contribution to the household at the moment as it was a nightmare the last time we tried and he was in a bit of a bad way when he came home so I thought I’d let him have some time to save. Which he hasn’t....
So now we are at it again - he owes me just over a thousand quid (this is the most it’s ever been - it’s always been hundreds btw) and we have a schedule to pay back starting soon which I am hoping he sticks to.
I know it isn’t a massive MASSIVE debt and I am lucky enough to be able to help him but my query is:
I have tried every which way to help him manage money down the years and he never gets it! He actually gets an OK wage largely due to the hours he works so I just don’t know what he does with it!!!!
But I’m just looking for tips and advice re teaching (even at this late stage) how to manage money. Books? Apps?
I keep thinking it’s me but his sister is at Uni and is doing pretty well. I don’t get requests for cash and last week a sum of money she has said she will give me from every maintenance grant to pay back for a piece of equipment she has had to have and I lent some money for just appeared in my bank account without me reminding or begging....
Sigh.....
It is a worry for me. I have been a single parent for most of DCs lives so there’s only me really to have these conversations. And it’s the nagging him to actually get anything out of him that is SO stressful.
He does want to change btw!!! It really gets him (and me!) down but not enough for change I guess!!!!

It sounds like you’ve been way too easy on him over the years and haven’t made him pay you back. Simple solution - set it up on his bank account so that when he gets paid x amount is automatically transferred to you.

CAP run budgeting courses. They are meant to be good I believe.

Yes,
That’s what I was going to say- agree a direct debit to come out every month.

If you can persuade him to, get him to arrange a DD for a savings plan and a pension. My mum persuaded me to do this when I was 21. I only paid in for about 4 years and was earning about 7,000 so couldn’t have been much but is worth £40k now!! (Was 40 years of compound interest!)

The issue is that he is completely financially clueless. I have always had to bail him out a bit and his track record of paying me back hasn’t been great.

Effect. Cause.

Agree - sit him down and let him know that this isn't on, he needs to learn to budget and he needs to pay you back. CAP have been suggested before as good for helping with debt and budgeting - templates etc. He needs to work out his budget and set up. S/O to pay you back on the day he gets paid.

People have also recommensed the Martin Lewis /MSE pages, there will be tips on there.

He could get a Monzo account which will show him where he is spending his money.
If he cares about you and wants to change then he needs to address what he is doing day-to-day.

Mse is a great website. Good that you are helping him now before he gets in big debts! Don't let him off the hook with the $1000! It is a good way to start learning. Don't feel too personally responsible though. Some people are just bad at managing money.

I think you have to change your mindset as well as his to be honest. The fact you say it isn’t a massive debt is revealing... it IS a big debt! Owing your Mum £1000 ish in your 20s is a big deal especially if you aren’t even paying rent! You need to come down hard on him, he pays it back plus rent no excuses. If he didn’t have you to fall back on he’d be paying rent and bills in his own flat! He’s got it easy and it needs to hit him like a ton of bricks.

I would sit down with him and show him how much your outgoings are for the house- how much it takes to run everything. Make him realise that by paying you rent it isn’t just going in your pocket but is allowing you to keep paying the bills. I was utterly awful with money- similarly to your son- and it was my mum doing this with me that was a bit of a lightbulb moment. I had no idea how much anything actually cost!

Plus Monzo - suggest he opens an account with them and transfers spending money into it / uses it as a main account. The app shows in real time what he’s spent where and you can allocate spending pots so you don’t overspend .

Moneysavingexpert website has basic advice on money management and a budget template for him.

That has to come from him though.

And you demand that £1000 back at eg £200 a month in the mean time.

Otherwise he has less incentive.

Isn't it funny how different they can be?

I have a 20yo saving to buy 1st house & an 18yo who spends every penny...

look around in society, very successful professional people are many who also can't budget well.

If he’s not paying living expenses and is on a decent wage, where is his money going? What is he borrowing for?

The first step is to stop lending and allow him to decide whether to take some responsibility. A direct debit to pay you back at a fair amount a month then suggest he maintains the DD as savings.

The best way of learning to budget is to have to do so without a bale out option.

Thanks for all these ideas/suggestions
And yes, I agree that I have not been as tough as I should have been...
There is a rather difficult backstory which makes me more lenient than I might be but the hard truth is that this is really only an explanation not an excuse and I am very VERY aware that I haven’t done him any favours in some ways.
It’s hard when the same parenting (broadly - on this issue) results in very different outcomes but everyone is different. I have tried not to ‘favour’ DD - for example when I gave her some money towards uni equipment, I gave DS money towards his car even tho he’s earning and she’s a student because I didn’t want him to feel like she was getting more help than him. But I am sure a few of you will be at that!!!!

He has said he will pay me back weekly. I suggested monthly just because that gives fewer opportunities for reminders and therefore stress for me but he has asked to do it this way. The ‘plan’ has it paid off by May so not small amounts each week.
He has a car which he is paying off In instalments and with running costs for that plus quite high petrol costs to get to and from work. He has a VERY expensive taste in clothes and trainers. He also has got into big trouble in the past with phones....
But he assures me that the phone is now pay as you go and that his clothes addiction is under control....
And because of the long hours he works he doesn’t go out much at all
It is a bit of a mystery but he’s really not good at ‘looking after the pennies’ - he will buy loads of small stupid stuff and not realise that it adds up.
He is utterly lovely, funny and kind btw and has been a real emotional rock for me on many occasions so it’s hard!!!

First thing he needs to do is work out where the money is going. He needs to get the last six months of his bank accounts and analyse them to highlight what he's spending it on. Until you know where you are, you can't make progress. It may be coffees & bacon buns every morning, or rounds of drinks every night in the pub, or an expensive hobby, or booze or drugs, or clothes, or whatever. When he can see he's spent £2000 in six months, on, say, bacon buns, it's a sobering wake up call. Obviously, if it's booze or drugs you've a bigger problem that financial control!

www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2018/11/financial-education-textbooks-funded-by-martin-land-in-english-s/

All good stuff
Thanks so much!!!
(Don’t think it’s booze or drugs but I do know that he has in the past spent more on one pair of trainers than I have probably ever spent on an item of clothing!!!!)

If you download the money dashboard app and link it to the bank account it analyses all sorts of things.

How much spent in each area, how many "visits" to a retailer. Where most money spent.

It's really good.

You can use it to set budgets. I'll try and share some screenshots.

Yolt is a really good app- you map all your bank accounts and credit cards to the app and it automatically classifies your spending so you can see where your money is going and cut back/be careful as applicable. You can also set budgets for each category or spending and it will notify you if you are close to overspending. You can set saving goals and it has little tutorial videos on how to manage your money better. I'd really recommend!

Also I'd insist on him setting up a standing order today you back monthly. If he's earning and not paying rent I'd suggest £200 a month to start.

Cross post with scifi,sounds very similar. There are a few apps about that do it, definitely worth trying!

I've tried Yolt and Money Dashboard. I prefer money dashboard.

I have Yolt linked to our joint account and MD linked to all my personal accounts.

Okay, I think what's going on is he's buying trainers at £700 a pair? As opposed to lots of little things adding up. I think a little chat about how that type of luxury should only be brought when you have covered everything else and you certainly shouldn't go into debt because of it.
I do feel for you though. DD1 is only young still but she has no concept of the value of money because she asks to eat out most days and she does usually get her way because her dad wants to eat out too plus watching him buy expensive watches etc. I'v started having a chat with her most days otherwise I think she'll end up like your DS.

Just fainted at the thought of £700 trainers!!!!
Though I think we are talking multiple hundreds....
AND a certain amount of frittering.

I am going to look at all these resources - I might get some ideas for myself! I will certainly share with DD as well as she isn’t perfect.

And yes, some serious reality check talking is in order. Though (don’t slay me...) I tend to try and do this in bite sized portions as when I embark on anything that lasts too long he just tends to switch off. I think that’s the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears as this stuff scares him. He tends to avoid issues and hopes they will go away (hence previously getting into a debt that was rising exponentially in relation to his phone - guess who bailed him out of that one??? )

Nobody actually needs anything more than a basic smartphone and a giffgaff £10 goody bag per month.
I can't quite grasp why people spend so much on phones.

I would love a faster one so I could play fortnite on the go but I can't afford it so that's that.