7yo 10pm bedtime – anyone?

[Cellospice]

My DD has never been one to sleep for long stretches, 11hours was her longest when v. small. However, 10pm seems to be her fall-asleep time atm. I know the evenings are hot and light etc. she does seem to have difficulty winding down... or is just not tired? Sometimes she has difficulty getting up and I waker her about 7.45, but mostly she is up around 7-7:30ish. So not obviously tired although sometimes I noticed she has got 'past it' with the tiredness, and sometimes she is extra sensitive and turning on the waterworks. I've tried lots of stories, from me, on CD, lots of cuddles, climbing into bed with her, lying next to her on the sofa and strokiing her (which worked for a couple of nights by which time it was late anyway). I did have a theory that she was hanging out for 'mummy time' as her and 5yo (much more demanding little girl) used to go to bed @ the same time. Now they have had separate bedtimes for a few months and it has made no difference. She is not yet at an age to read independently, sadly (or have I stunted her development by lack of sleep!!! !!!!) so I am wondering if this is a problem or not, and if so, are there any strategies out there??????
Thanks, CS
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Mmmmm, sorry, should have reviewed that, typos aplenty ? it's past my OWN bedtime!

My almost 7yr old would not cope with that late a bedtime, but you are the best judge of what is OK for your child. I guess you can only try!

Dd is in bed for 8, latest. When she is unable to sleep, I allow her to read a book (she can read at average 7yr lvl). She will read for a while then I guess her eyes get tired & more often than not she falls asleep. You say she can't read independently, would she be happy to look at books, just to relax?

I think the more attention you give her in terms of reading/watching tv, sitting/lying with will just stimulate her more. Dd also has a story cd that she listens to if she can't sleep. The main thing for me, is that she is in bed, entertaining her self in a peaceful way & able to go to sleep independently.

I agree that you need to send her to bed earlier and let her relax there even if she takes a while to fall asleep. My 6 yr old is often awake when I am going to bed but I am very strict about my dcs going up go bed by 8 even if they don't go to sleep straight away - fir my own sanity! They are usually up by 6.30 so I would get no peace otherwise.

If you let her stay downstairs till she is sleepy she will fight sleep as being allowed to stay up with you is more exciting.

Meant to add that I expect my dcs to settle themselves to sleep - I read one story and then leave them to it.

10pm is my 13 yo's bedtime in the week. I agree, even if your dd reads or looks at a mag for an hour, put her to bed earlier and let her wind down properly. Reward stickers still work at age 7 too .

DS is 7 and falling asleep between 9.30 pm and 10pm and waking naturally about 7.30pm.
This appears to be enough. So we just have to manage it so that DH and I get some 'us' time.

I read to him until about 8.30 and from then on he just reads to himself or looks at those books where you have to find things in busy pictures. We tell him to turn his light out about 9.15 if he has school the next day.

School finishes this Friday and it's not very hard work at the moment so he just isn't so tired. We went through the same thing last summer although he would fall asleep slightly earlier, and come September with darker evenings and challenging school work we were back to him being asleep earlier.

Poor sleep is not a great idea and I think once poor sleep patterns are established , they are hard to break.

DS2 has SN and it is hard for him to settle but I still send him to bed by 9.00 ( he is 13)
I convinced myself for ages that if he didn't sleep there was no point forcing the issue but after a while it became apparent that he was over emotional at times and it had a bad effect on his mood and control and concentration.

Going to bed, even ifthey don't fall asleep is much more relaxing and at least constitutes rest if not sleep.

DD is 8 in September and I would never let her regularly stay up that late. She is in bed at 7.30 - 8.00 at the latest ( bit later weekends) and she writes or draws in bed, listens to stories or music. She drifts off with ease now.

The other thing that helps is that she is very active with lots of gym and swimming etc. Have you tried taking your DD for a long walk after tea or a swim or something to see if that helps?

My DD (5.8) has never needed much sleep. She has masses of energy to burn, and this year I have constantly upped the amount of physical exercise she takes, and I have lots of plans for this summer and next academic year (quite serious sports training) so that I can ensure she is getting enough energy-burning time.

I really notice the difference in her on the days that I haven't been able to collect her from school for lunch - when she eats at the canteen, she takes considerably less exercise in the middle of the day, and she finds it a lot harder to relax and go to bed in the evening.

That's interesting, thanks all, I do always send dd upstairs by 8-8:30 and insist that she goes straight back up when she comes down (complaining that she is 'lonely' as her sister is sparko) but by 9:30 we are all worn out by the repeated trips up and down stairs/excuses and are on desperate measures like allowing her to fall asleep in our bed. Actually I might start giving her some paper and pens so she can amuse herself that way, failing that, maybe a sticker chart is the way forward. At this age I would rather they just 'knew' the way to behave, plus she is really unhappy on her own upstairs trying to get to sleep, but stickers are worth a try maybe.

Re the exercise thing, it doesn't seem to make any difference, doesn't matter if it's sports day or if she scootered to school, last night she was rowing a dragon boat on a lake with Brownies til she got a blister on her hand, still she was up til 10.............Please please if there are any more opinions/suggestions, keep 'em coming.......
CS
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TBH
The 'by x time we are all exhausted' thing is part of your problem.
If she keeps asking and you say no, no, no and then eventually yes - all you have taught her is that she has to keep doing it for a really long time before you cave.

It is a bad enough lesson to learn just for bedtime but TBH you are lining up all sorts of problems re her using nagging and knowing it will work.

Get some straegies sorted. Chose a day to start and then stick to it.

If it were me I wouls explain to her , you will be going to bed at x o'clock. You can have music,story tapes drawing, writing stuff etc but you do not come down.
If you stay in your room you get a sticker and at the end of the wek you will get x
If you get up you will lose stuff. 1st time no computer tomorrow, 2nd time no tv tomorrow etc etc. If there is a consequence to her coming down then she will stop. At the moment the only consequence of her coming down is that you get frustrated and then cave.

HTHs
I had to do this with a 7 year old with sn - if he can understand it then your DD can

I have nothing useful to add but sympathy. My DS has just turned eight, and is frequently awake at 10pm. He walks four miles to school and back, does tons of competitive sport at school (which he loathes, but he has no choice), and swims at school. It makes no difference. I send him up at 8pm for the sake of my own sanity, but I can still hear him rattling around two hours later. He reads voraciously in bed and dislikes getting up at 6.30 to walk to school (though happily gets up at 6.30 on non-school days). His six-year-old sister goes up at 7.30, draws for ten minutes or so, then goes to sleep - so I don't think it's bad management on our part.

It's all very wearing.

Oh and start it on a day when you know the YOU will stick to it. Initially she will be a bloody nightmare so you have to be ready to stick to the bedtime, the stickers and the consequences. If you pick a start day when you know you will be tired or going out etc then you are setting yourself up to fail and that will actually make matters worse.

Do it when you know you will see it through for at least a week or don't do it at all.

If she can't read yet, then I'd send her off with a book on CD.

I was always zero tolerance about bedtime at that age. DS went to bed, I think I may have still read him a story but he was reading well by then & would read for half an hour or so. He knew that if he messed about, came downstairs etc he'd get short shrift unless he was ill.

Even now he's almost 16 he goes to bed between 9.30 & 10. Watches tv for half an hour then fast asleep.

Agree with others that maybe your dd needs more exercise

Alfreda
my symathies too...
Can I just mention something that may well sound barking and you are totally free to ignore...

DS2 also seemed to sleep much worse if he ate certain foods in the evening.
Milk, apple juice, blackcurrant ( ribena) or chocolate made him really wakeful. When we stopped him having these in any proximity to bedtime he did much much better almost imediately. And he had been sleeping only about 4 hours a night before that..

Just thought I would mention

Pagwatch, did your strategy result in your DS actually going to sleep earlier? I don't know what's going on, dd used to sleep no probs at all. My younger one used to be a nightmare, then the very week she started going straight to sleep, my oldest started being a problem. Feel like a rubbish parent.

CS
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Oh God don't feel like a rubbish parent!

I am like Alfreda. had one child slept like an angel and then one who wouldn't sleep at all...

It did help DS. I think he managed to keep his mind awake IYSWIM when he was up and about. Once he got into bed and got used to the sensation of winding down it helped enormously and rarely now are any of them still awake when i check on them when I go to bed.

TBH I think DS2s wakefulness was part of his inability to 'wind down' and whilst I understand that others go with their childs sleep patterns for me it was a sign that he just needed more help than DD.

Once he got used to the whole process, getting ready for bed, winding dwn, relaxing, getting sleepy, going to sleep - it paid huge dividends.

DD and my oldest DS were able to do the go to bed, get sleepy, go to sleep and it didn't need to be learnt or practiced.

Hope that makes sense

Yes, winding down is really important to some people. DS who is 7 finds it quite hard to fall asleep without reading a bit first, even we have had a late night because of a family event and we are all going to bed at the same time. DH is the same.

Whereas DD and I will both just drop off when we are tired, regardless of where we are.

my DD is 7 and falls asleep about 10 and up at half 7. She has never needed too much sleep it seems - though she is still getting around 10 hours which is a fair whack.She reads copiously now by herself so no longer stringing out the bedtime reads ( though she still likes me to read to her) however the excitement of Secret 7 is too much to bear and often find her head asleep on book! Before she was reading ( btw they suddenly just 'get it' with reading) the best thing to help her wind down was a story tape (videos stimulate too much). I used to make her go to bed at 8.30 after strict wind down routine but I felt so sorry for her just lying there bored until 10 so now ive given up. She gets tons of exercise - swing/bike/climbs trees from the minute she gets home from school and then a two hour walk with the dogs and baby. Other parents at school say their kids are also up late with light nights - my DD is nearly as bad in winter though too.....

Sympathies. My (nearly 7-yr-old dd) was always a very regular sleeper until recently.

I think she has simply become aware that life carries on downstairs after she goes to bed.

(Not helped by heat, light nights and [woeful mummy emoticon] no curtains ...

However, I do notice a positive difference (a) when we've walked alot (b) when we don't watch a DVD immediately before bed and (c) when I catch her just at the right moment when she is feeling tired.

If we are busy or eating late or something and I miss "the moment" the adrenalin seems to kick in and then she finds it much harder to wind down.

Tbh I think lots of dc are over-tired atm, end of term activities and all that, and they are running on adrenalin and that's when we can get in to a vicious cycle.

none of mine have ever had a bedtime time. And I cannot remember a time when they have gone before 10pm. youngest is now 10 and regularly up til then or later.

As long as they get up in the morning, I have not worried about it. I think some children just need more sleep than others.

Pagwatch, thank you very much indeed for the tip. I will try it!

I think you're absolutely right about the winding-down thing. My son has AS (of the ultra-high-functioning variety), and finds it very, very hard to switch his brain off. He's invariably (re)constructing the periodic table when he's awake at 10pm. If he's not writing it, he's nattering on to himself about it. His school is a high-functioning prep, and I think pretty much every second of the school day is full-on. That's one reason I walk him two miles home - I feel that he needs it after being very regulated and driven during the day. My daughter, by contrast, takes the whole bath/story/bed routine as her the cue to wind down - which she duly does.

My DS is having Ribena at supper time at the moment, which we don't often have - and he is being particularly wakeful. All the more reason to eliminate it!

Dd has a tick chart on her door & gets 5 ticks per night. It is mainly to keep her in bed, but it includes

getting ready for bed
toilet
teeth
getting in bed nicely
staying in bed (she is allowed out once, for a valid reason)

If she gets 4/5 ticks, she gets a smiley face. Nothing else. I don't reward for behaviour I expect & I expect her to get ready & go to bed with no problem. I do however, remove something if she doesn't get at least 5 smiles a week. She loves getting the smiley faces & for the last 3 weeks it has worked really well.

I agree with Pag, in that she will just keep going until you give in because that is what you do currently. If need be you will have to stay upstairs while you implement it, and get her right before she leaves her room.

My just 6 year old DD is the same. She is rarely asleep before 9.30/10 at the moment. But she has always been very bouncy and lively. As a baby she cried/screamed herself to sleep - I tried more gentle wind-down methods but they didn't work! As soon as she could sit up, I put toys and books in her cot and she stopped the crying and starting playing herself to sleep instead!

So I have always allowed her to read and draw in bed until she falls asleep. At the moment, she does have an annoying habit of bringing me the drawings - which are usually labelled 'To mummy, I love you so much'! - but usually we don't hear from her after about 8.30/9 as she's absorbed in what she's doing. She often goes to sleep with the light on too.

It's not very 'correct' but it works for us. I've tried forcing her to lie in silence with the light off but she doesn't go to sleep any earlier, so it seems unfair. As it is, I think she quite enjoys her bedtime routine!