Help please............DD bitten today at coffee "thing" and we came home, what do I do now (sorry v long)

[loujay]

Hope this is the right topic to put this under...here goes.........me and DD go to a coffee afternoon every friday with my antenatal group and its great, mums clicked right from the start and the babes (all girls) also get on well. This afternoon one of the girls bit my DD on her fingers leaving them purple with a mark that has still not gone down, the skin was broken but no blood (thank god). The girl who dod this has also bitten DD on another occasion when the mark stayed for a week and 3 weeks ago agressivly growled at her so loudly that it made her cry. After the growling I said to myself that if it happened again me and DD would go home. This child IMO is agressive and also seems to select my dd only for this bullying behaviour. The mother who I know well just says "stop being agressive" or "really you should go in the corner" makes her come and say sorry and then thats it!! LAst week my DD pinched one of the girls and after doing it twice I said if she did it again we would go home which we ended up doing. So after the biting today I decided enough was enough and we came home, the mum of the other girl took great offence and looked at me as if I was mental, I said that it was not a reflection on her, that I have alot of other issues going on at the moment and that I could not watch out for my DD and other children at the same time and that I did not want to argue with her about it so it was best if we went home to which she said that I obviously had other issues and that it was a good thing that I went otherwise we would really get into it!! I cried all the way home and dont know what to do now. I am a bit emotionally drained as my Mum died 3 months ago but I do feel that her daughter is a bully!! Any advice gratefully received

hercules- don't worry about other people's reactions. I've been out with friends who have said aftterwards "how d you cope with everyone staring" (usually for screaming btw) and I haven't even noticed! I think if you have to deal with it all your attention is taken up with the child so you really don't notice. Yes other people's reactions can be a problem- see my "no" bit below!

Funnily enough she doesnt have the magic answer either. So what does she need to do to make people who disaprove happy?

Not judging the child. Just exploring a practical solution to dangerous behaviour.

That's true, jimjams. My sister used to be really conscious of other people but had to decide to put her ds first and barely notices peoples comments whilst I'm still shocked to hear peoples comments.

So what is your practical solution?

Yes the problems come if nothing works. Ususally you just have to ride out a particular behaviour- repeatedly making sure you give no reinforcement for it- trouble is that is not a quick fix- it can take ages. Unfortunately even constant supervision can't stop all incidents.

Shall I tell my sister to stay at home with him then. Not sure what he'll learn though. I repeat what I said earlier. We all hate to see poor negleted children but dont let them near our kids if they're a little troubled.

I have no problem with what is perceived as antisocial behaviour I do have concerns with dangerous behaviour. As I said before my cousin lost an eye as a result of a child throwing a stone at him.

She was told he would never be able to interact with other people and form relationships so tbh what he does is pretty amazing.

I very rarely 'punish' my children in public - if ds threw a stone at someone, I would tell him off in front of the other child (so other child sees that ds hasn't got away with it!) and make him apologise but I wouldn't take it any further. I may then have a chat later at home (when everyone is calm) about why we don't throw stones and leave it at that.

I think there are a few important things - the child who has been injured needs to see the other child's behaviour is stopped (by a telling off or taking away) and the naughty child should apologise. Other than that, there's not more than can be done!

So what's your solution? Surely critizing is pointless unless you have a better alternative or advice?

well yes foxinsocks which is why I'm wondering what else people want to be done?

throwings a hard one. Ds1 throws stuff over the stairs (he's broken a bubbble machine this week). Other than making sure no-one lingers underneath the banisters and listening for the pat pat up the stairs there's very little can be done. I tend to say "no throwing" and make him pick it up. But otherwise am stumped. If he's told off he shrieks with laughtert and does it again, if I put him in his room he wees on the floor!

Her ds sees the saying sorry as a game now and goes to do it as soon as he's done something so it's not effective anyway.

Her ds also pushes kids over. That's a difficult one too.

is he autistic hercules-= or is it attachment disorder. Ds1 sees "no" as the routine. Often if he does something nuaghty he shouts no whilst doing it. Then when you say it he rolls around on the floor killing himself laughing. Lorna Wing writes and excellent bit about that in one of her books- how the actual routine of being told off can become rewarding. I don't generally like her- but that bit was amazing. I'll try and dig the book out to reproduce on here later- but I think dh is going to nab the computer for cricket now!

Not autistic but they were told he has attachment problems and he has speech problems. He is hyperactive and yes, sees telling off as a game. He's not quite 3 and it's difficult at this stage to know how much is due to his background and how much due to actual problems iyswim.

I agree with others that viewing a 2 year old as a bully is unhelpful.

However, I don't think what you said to the Mum was so terrible tbh, and there does come a point where it is just best to go home, I would have done the same. I couldn't have faced any group events like this 3 months after losing my Mum, so I think you're brave doing it.

Have you met up with the Mum and her dd as just a foursome? Some toddlers find being part of a bigger group a bit "full on" and can react with aggressive behaviour. Maybe you could ring up and invite her out just the two of you and dd's - depends on how important it is to you really.

going out now but thanks for post jimjams. It would be interesting for more info about the writer you said.

It's hard I think as SS etc tend to put all behaiours down to attachment disorders when that's not necessarily the case. I'll try and dig out this Lorna Wing stuff about behaviour- it is very good and practical and can help people who don't really "get it" to nunderstand why their response is so important. And how all the usual stuff *shouting, screaming even smacking) can be reinforcing and not help stop the behaviour at all.

loujay, I presume dd is your first child. I remember being mortified when dd was kicked, hit, bitten, pushed at toddler group when she was little - especially as she was such a lovely, gentle, passive little thing. Once, when she was pushed to the ground and stamped on by a little boy, I nearly burst into tears (and I do remember thinking, what a horrid little boy)!!

Not all children go through a hitting/kicking/biting phase but many do and I imagine the other mother is very embarrassed and probably doesn't know how to handle the situation. At 2, they are so young and they still don't really understand the consequences of their actions. She probably didn't tell her child off sufficiently (when they are that age, you really need to tell them off straight away so they get the point) but she may not yet know herself how to deal with it.

I would rise above it if I was you. If you don't want to go to the group again, then don't. But if you do, I think you should tell the other mother that you were very upset because you didn't want your daughter getting hurt.

and as all the kids get older, believe me there will be lots of incidents like this so it's best to have a strategy in your mind as to how you will deal with it if it happens again.

Personally I am always more upset if my child bites than if s/he is bitten. I think most parents are. It's also important to remember that it could be your child who bites or hits one day. It's completely random who gets a child who bites. Next time it could be you.

My ds has been bitten a couple of times at nursery and all his friends the same age have started hitting and biting as well. I don't think this child is a bully and it sounds like the mum is doing the best she can to stop it. I agree telling the child off yourself is a good thing to try - I do with my friends children and they look very shocked and stop immediately in general. I think you are being affected more by this than your child probably is. I can understand that you feel emotionally sensitive at the moment but surely this is not something to fall out over - you must need your friends at right now more than ever. I would be more annoyed if the mother just did nothing at all (which has happened to a friend of mine recently and in the end she asked the woman to leave and said she was going out)

My dd has been the victim of three biting occasions at nursery and i've had world war three with them and threatened to move her. But after dealing with children with special needs who bite, i suggest you bring your dd away and if skin is not broken put on some LASONIL can be bought at chemist, it brings bruising out and helps heal faster than anything else i've seen. Give your daughter extra attention and ignore other child and other than that it's just a matter of keeping a close eye, is it that the other child can't cope with the size of the group or that your dd starles them unknowingly, watch out for any signs. I'd also say to the child that "biting isn't nice, we bite food not people", if you feel comfortable enough to then try and explain to them if they are cross or upset that they need to tell a grown up not hurt their friend. If you treat it as if they are expressing them selves by biting then it may be because they haven't yet got the words to express their feelings yet.
It still doesn't make it right, but hope it gives you some suggestions.