"socialising" my toddler - feel I have been a mug

[afterallyouknow]

I have 2 children 2 and 1 and having moved here 18 mo ago, I only know people through toddler groups. I meet up individually with 3 women for tea with the children but with 2 of them it has been not good as their boys snatch constantly from my daughters and are both mothers do not (IMO) do enough about it. The thing that almosts makes my blood boil is when boy takes toy car off my daughter, mother tells him not to but does not make him give it back and hands another one to my child.

I feel I have been a total idiot to let this go on, I have been angry with the one mother who I had developed some friendship with and felt impotent to tell her how I felt. The other mother came round yesterday and her son was very difficult, snatching, shoving etc. I know he is 2 and 1/4 but he can be told, even it if takes a 100 times.

I am angry with myself for having let this go on and not standing up for my children. I never see these mothers outside of the children, my children can't be getting anything positive out of this and as my husband said "I have been doing it for me and to kill some time". Why don't I stand up for myself? I am so cross that this child came into my house yesterday and just took over.

I think because I don't have "proper" friends here I have felt I have to socialise my children and get them seeing other people (eldest goes to nursery 3 mornings a week, I go to toddler groups with the 2 of them 2 days a week and baby groups with baby twice a week.

I feel I have let my children down.

tbh, if this was going on in my home then i would gently encourage the little boy to share and try to find solutions. Certainly the little boy is being unkind or wrong even he is just being a child-could you not step in like that? you dont have to sit back mute getting slowly more and more aggrieved because the other mum isnt doing things the way you feel she should!

My DD is 18 months. If she was snatching from or hitting another child, I would tell her off. Yes, I KNOW she is only little and most of them do this and telling her might not even make any difference but I do believe boundaries have to be set, even early on, and more importantly it would signify to other parents that I gave a toss that my DD was not being nice to their kid(s). I am surprised other posters would let it roll. So, I am with you in that sense, OP, and I understand it's frustrating but I do think you are letting this frustration overwhelm you and I think you should have a really calm talk with the other parents about how you feel, if you can (in a sympathetic tone, not critical, and not when it is actually going on but at another time). If you do it in the right way and with the right tone, it might help.

There are the parents who think it's fine for their kids to snatch and there are the parents who don't think its fine to snatch and who try to do something about it, like stopping them and telling them not to, even if it takes 1000 times. You just have to find some of the 2nd group, but it's not always very easy unfortunately!

I have to disgree with most of the posts and say that though the poster seems emotionally involved and stressed by this - of course snatching is normal - but it is how the parent deals with it and letting it happen a lot is not on.

It sounds like you are not on the same wavelength as this mother and should find other people to be with.

saying you odd because the person does not agree with you shows how unhelpful you are - this mother is clearly upset as she feels unable to intervene with someone else's child.

You can't expect everyone to parent the same way as you and if their parenting styles bother you so much you need to find some other friends.

Are you doing anything without the children where you might make some frinds?

Are you doing anything other than playgroups?

um - if they weren't telling off their little boys, you'd have a point - but they are and 'substituing' toys may not be an ideal solution, but it is a solution.

peronally, if i never have to do 'learning to share' again it would be too soon..>notes bump & 17mo - Dope!<

and the whole thing about socialising with kids is a nightmare because of this level of judgement - what i think is 'enough' one parent won't, or they may think it is wildly strict (those that just let their kdis get onwith it) and interrrupting play...

i really resent that now it isn't enough for me to be liked by a person, they have to like the way i handle my kids too...

cut them some slack - sooner or later your DD will be older and in some way causing a problem you feel bad about - its going to happen. i think i is better to be the parent of a kid who is not the offending party anyway...then you can enjoy a bit of 'schadenkinde'

If a just-over-2-year-old takes something from your 2 year old;

a) your child probably doesn't care that much and if she can be distracted by another toy, that's fine
b) If yours is upset, you can say to the other child (as I do at playgroup) Hey, my [name] was playing with that, how about you play with another toy? And give them the other toy

You can intervene if the mothers aren't. But really, the children aren't being physically violent, they just don't know about sharing yet. At 2 years old, you're just mediating a bit, this whole 'standing up for my child' 'letting my child down' stuff sounds really like you're projecting out from your own needs, to me. And to everyone else on this thread; you want to pay attention to that.

For transparency, my daughter is 18 months, and the youngest in her playgroup. She often, rherefore, gets children trying to take away toys and the like. I intervene as above if I think it necessary, but they're all so young. The point at this age is to get them used to each other. They're not going to be traumatised by you 'not standing up for them'. They're tiny.

I think the poster hit the nail on the head - she does not see these mothers without the children so she has to look at what she and her children are getting out of this and I am surprised so many people seem to think it is ok for her children to continue to see kids who snatch and shove and don't get told that this is wrong - even if her child does not seem to mind, why should she be getting the message it is ok to behave like this?

last thing - if your children are not enjoying themselves and you are not (I am guessing the 1 yr old was upset at getting stuff snatched off her) then find other people to be with!

It is all about mutual respect and it sounds like these mothers are not respecting you.

OP - I am totally with you on this one. Drives me crazy when parents don't correct this kind of behaviour . Granted they are small children but can you imagine if every time you picked up a paper to read/ pen to write a letter/laptop to MN someone snatched it out of your hands. It'd drive you crazy so why should our children have to deal with it.

I was assuming that the OP actually needed to have some adult company. Certainly, if that is not the case, she should knock the whole thing on the head. There is no point really in trying to 'socialise' children that young. Just take them to playgroups or music groups so they know other children exist, and wait till they are old enough to play with other children. I tend to assume that all activities for children under the age of about two and a half are really for the carers' benefit.

This is really my last point - it sounds completly one-sided what is happening here and if it were your child and theirs snatching at different times then yes give and take - but this is not, this is one child persistently snatching from 2 others - it is not right to let that go.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell's post is excellent advice.

I would say try to relax, and if you are still building friendships for yourself, it's important not to focus on your dc's for the entire meet-up time, but enjoy some adult chat too.

Keep a perspective, don't feel guilty, I'm sure you're doing a great job.

And from an expat who regularly has to make new friends (and finds it the most difficult part of moving home/country), make finding a non-child, non-DH related activity where you can meet people (gym membership, yoga classes, book club, whatever) a priority!

there's a very young toddler at a group i go to who continually bashes into other kids and takes their toy off them, often leaving them crying. the mum sees this happening, and always laughs and says 'oh, he doesn't MEAN anything by it'. which of course, he doesn't, he doesn't know any differently, but it is part of the job of parenting to teach your child how to behave.

i do have a couple of friends with kids who are not good at sharing (and i have a ds2 who is not good at sharing but is gradually learning) - but they and I act on it every time there is a problem.

Ultimately I think it's hard to spend time with people who have such different parenting ideas - at least while your kids are as young as this and can't yet sort out their own battles.

weddingseason - that would be totally different though wouldnt it as adults know not to behave like that.

It is parenting norm to respond to this situation with the whole 'now Johnny we must learn how to share' but this is really for the benfit of the other parents not the child as the child has no idea what the concept of sharing might be and theres conjecture about it being actually harmful to try and make them (must look this up)...

I realise that its hard when people dont share the same parenting as you but the dc wont be damaged by it - most of their, if not all, of their behaviour will be set by you and not by other random toddlers.

thank you for some more balance! I am angry with myself because my children don't get anything out of these interactions - we see one other woman and her daughter and yes she snatches but mother is much better at telling her not to and their is some interaction with my elder daughter.

It is one sided and you tell me a mother who would not find that upsetting. I have to learn the right, assertive way of dealing with this but I don't enjoy meet ups like this and I will stop doing them because I value me and my children more highly than putting up with stuff that is no good.

But maybe what you would get out of these interactions is the chance to see other people parenting differently? Its often very interesting and instructive - granted it seems like its totally winding you up atm.

They dont really interact at this age anyway and wont for some time.

they may not understand 'sharing' conceptually, but they can and need to learn taking turns/not making other children cry etc. Otherwise, when do you start? It was ok to snatch when you were 2, but now you're 4 you need to learn not to?

This situation sounds really familiar to me and I have felt similarly to you lots of times.

It's true that it is just a phase that young children commonly go through, and I have found this thought comforting when my DS has had bad behaviour phases. I did spend time keeping a close eye on him, almost following him around, ready to stop him if he was treating another child unacceptably. I made sure I did correct him because I have a real bee in my bonnet about this type of thing.

..And I recognise that you have a similar 'bee in your bonnet'

Mine comes from anger at my parents for not protecting me from bad things they knew were happening. It makes me feel that if I don't protect my own children from every little thing then I am a contemptible parent. I don't want my children to feel the same anger towards me that I feel towards my parents.

At times when I've been 'too scared' to do something about another child being horrible to mine, I've felt really angry with myself. I've been scared of telling off other people's children or scared of making their parents angry with me. But the more it has carried on the more anger I have built up because it is something I have a sore point about.

I lost a friend recently because of this - because I overreacted when I couldn't contain my feelings any more about her child being rough with mine. The friendship meant a lot to me and I was scared to jeopardise it by saying anything sooner. I should have said something/done something, but in an assertive way. I mean a non agressive, non critical, non judgemental way which could have maybe not damaged the friendship by making my friend feel verbally attacked/criticised.

I agree with you that you should do something to help your DS, but do it in a way that would be kind to the other boy and his mother. Sit near them when they are playing and eg when the other one snatches a toy, gently take it back from him and give it to DS and say kindly "No, DS had it first", and offer the other boy another toy and do something funny with it to distract him and make him see that he can have fun with that toy instead.

I know the boy's mother should be doing this and it would make me angry too that she doesn't, but if she isn't going to do it, you will have to. I think it will go down better than having a go at his mother about it. She might feel uncertain what to do in the situation and when she sees you doing it, she might start copying how you do it and it might help her.

Yes but ime LadySanders they do learn it as lonmg as its being modelled in the house - ie you play little turn taking and sharing games.

The behaviour then stops of its own accord.

I think its really very stressful when you expect behaviour from a child that isnt age appropriate or even appropriate for a child full stop. I did this a lot with my first dc and have had to reassess a lot since then.

OrdinarySAHM, excellent post - I do think, though (and I think you're implying this?) that you can't protect your child from everything nor should you. And the desire to do so is about you, not the child.

As I've said, my child is the youngest at our playgroup, so she gets things snatched more often than she snatches. In both cases I intervene a bit, but I do think the whole point of 'socialising' toddlers is to allow them to work this stuff out themselves. I'll encourage mine to share, and stop others snatching if I'm inclined, but frankly sometimes if another child snatches and she doesn't cry (just says 'no!' indignantly and then moves on) I think that's par for the ocurse, and part of socialising.

You can't, and shouldn't, protect them from everything.

OP, I think you need to seek out friendships that you are getting something out of, and not worry so much about the children. They're fine, I'm sure.

Thank you Tortoise

Another thing I thought of is that the mother's failure to discipline her child is not a reflection on how she feels about you or your child I don't think. I think it is more to do with her not knowing what to do, or being lazy, or not wanting to admit that her child could do anything wrong because it might make her feel she is an imperfect parent.

The thing is, I don't think it is embarrassing when your young child snatches a toy, it is just normal behaviour for children of that age. What is embarrassing is the mother failing to deal with it or not dealing with it properly.

Hum - I think that each parent has his/her own definition of what's acceptable.

When ds was wee I found myself running around disciplining him for the sake of other parents rather than within my framework. Not worth it as I found that other parents would let their child get away with things with my child that I found unacceptable.

So - I do my way - let others do theirs and if I find it's having a negative impact - well, we don't have to meet up etc.

My ds when 2 was very careful with smaller children and it was often the case that they would snatch - the parents would do nothing and he was at a loss as what to do with a smaller child and that annoyed him. Hey, it's a learning curve.

Now at 4 with lots of speech he's decided he doesn't want to share - with friends I'd have a go at getting him to be reasonable and failing that I'd hand the other child another nicer toy - no issues at all. It's not being lazy it's about picking your battles at the time.

I'd chill a bit and just go about meeting people who's parenting style you like.

People take wildly different views on toddlers and discipline. It's a fact you'll have to face if you want to make friends with other parents. Some people are very firm with their children from the start, whereas others see snatching/pushing etc as fairly normal behaviour in young children and don't start disciplining them until much later. No right or wrong, really. Just different ways of parenting.

If you like the parents and want to continue to build a friendship, it would be a good idea to chill out a little bit about the snatching etc, while also finding ways of gently putting your own opinions/rules accross (especially in your own house, which you are entitled to do).

However, if you are meeting up with them purely as a means to 'socialising' for your children, I wouldn't bother continuing the friendship, to be honest. A 2 yr old and 1 yr old don't really need to be socialising, other than perhaps the odd trip to toddler group to play with new toys, and it isn't worth the stress of having to regularly meet up wioth people you don't actually like.

You say your child is not getting anything out of this- yet you don't tell us about how your child reacts to being given another toy; it is all about your feelings. I think one of the hardest lessons we need to learn as parents is to separate our own reactions from those of our children.

I am not saying you have to continue with this toddler group, but I do think you have to do one of two things:

either establish that your dd does get so upset by this that it spoils any other pleasure she might derive from this group

or accept that you are leaving the group because of your feelings, not hers