Baby not hungry at 11pm feed !

[Vangough]

Help, our 6 week old DS is on Gina's schedule and is great pretty much most of the time. However although he eats well during the day he is never very hungry at the 11pm feed (my husband gives a bottle of express/formula) He is extremely sleepy and rarely takes more than 100ml (this takes an hour). If he does we get 5 hrs sleep til 5am, however if he only takes 80ml he wakes at 3-4am, then wakes at 5-6am, then again 7.30am. This is becoming more common. It's a killer the difference between a 3pm wake and a 5am wake !
Any ideas as to what we should do to get that longer stretch? it seems mad to wake a very sleepy baby at 11pm (he goes down after fussing a bit normally 7-8pm) but I reckon if we just left and didn't wake him he would sleep to only about 2am...and we're still looking at 2 wake-ups.
He is never very hungry at the 5am feed either only feeding on one side for 10mins then he conks out for another 2 hrs.
I've thought about reducing the evening feeds at 5pm and 6.15pm but he is always a guzzler at these feeds...could be hard ! (and how can you tell when they are breastfeeds anyway !)
Are we expecting too much !? It's just frustrating that sometimes he goes to 5am.

Hi - although not follwing GF we did try a dream feed for quite a while which my DP did. However when we went on holiday we left him to sleep and fed him when he woke naturally. Generally this has worked better and he only wakes once in the night for a feed and then geneally sleeps to around 6am (bed 6.30 - 7pm). Mine is quite a bit older than yours now - but perhaps give it a try and see what happens.

Don't try and feed him if he isn't hungry.

You do know that Gina doesn't have children, don't you and knows jackshit about your child?

Have confidence in your own choices.

I think you are expecting too much tbh. He is tiny.

The whole idea of getting a baby to sleep through is waiting for them to drop a feed and then pulling the others forwards or back so that you get a longer chunk in the middle of thr night. Your baby has obligingly dropped a feed for you and you're not happy because someone with no children, no intuition and no qualifacations tells you he did it wrong???!!!!

Celebrate a dropped feed then concentrate on moving the 3 am one towards midnight or towards 6am whichever you think will be easiest.

Fab, why does the fact that GF not have children of her own, mean that she knows "jackshit"?

The most supportive and helpful HV I ever had was also childless. Didn't affect her ability to do her job.

Because she doesn't have the emotional side of knowing how hard it is to let your baby cry.

i think you are expecting a lot from a 6 week old baby. anything more than 2-3 hours between breastfeeds is brilliant and too much time between feeds will not help your supply build

the best thing to do IME and IMO is to let your baby feed as long as they like , as often as they like and let them find their own way

not feeding them or reducing feeds at hungry times will lead to distress, and a sobbing, worn out baby full of wind, won't feed effectively, building a pattern of poor feeding and upset all round

night feeding is part and parcel of a 6 week old baby

2 night wakings is not actually that bad

your baby does not need the breast just for food, but for comfort, cuddles, warmth and loving time

he is not waking oyu up to feed at odd times to annoy you, but because he is a baby who needs to breastfeed to his needs, not to a written schedule

well said lulu!

Well I'm a demand feeder and just wanted to say that waking 2 x at night at this age is about par for the course.

Your baby has a v small tummy and so will want to feed when hungry and not when not.

Personally i think that with GF and that , it's good to read what they have to say, but to be felxible with it. Take the bits that work, and not the bits that don't.

For eg my DD1 would have done GF (even though we didn;t), I always called her a clockwork baby. She was v regular in her habits and a great sleeper. Naps, nappy changes, it was like she was on a timer DD2 got exactly the same treatment but never slept so well - and her feeds and things were much more irregular.

So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it's early days, by all means try to guide your baby into what you would prefer, but accept that she is her own person and might have different ideas sometimes

BTW, whatever you do, it just gradually gets better and better with the sleeping.

Discalimer: sleeping gradually gets better apart from when they're having a growth spurt!

Good luck and congrats as well

Hi, I bf all 3 of mine and also followed GF up to a point. However, none of mine ever got on with the 10.30pm feed. I simply couldn't make them take it whether bf or an expressed bottle. They didn't want to wake up and it was all just too much. With DD1 I stopped even trying to give that feed at about 5 weeks. Initially it made things worse - i.e. she would have a 2am wake but somehow letting her have her own sleep patterns worked a miracle in no time that 2am wake got later and later and she miraculously slept through the night (7 to 7) at just over 8 weeks. DD2 was v similar, I dropped the 10.30pm feed around 5 weeks and her sleeping extended out until she slept through at 10 weeks. DS went through at 12 weeks. I would strongly suggest that you leave her well alone and try at least a couple of times to get a v early night so that you catch up on your sleep before the early hours wake.

I know that not everyone will be lucky like I was, but I do think that sometimes it is best not to mess with their natural sleep patterns. If you feed regularly and well during the day and she is mainly awake a in the day with a good napping routine then there is a fair chance that your DD will start sleeping better soon - there is a huge change I found as they get past about 2 months and become a lot more robust and suddenly start to sleep for longer periods.

OMG my son rarely goes beyond 5am and he's 11 ( years!)

Well don't feed him ? Maybe. As the saying goes 'let sleeping babies lie'

I tried a dreamfeed with DS2 once, he growled at me and clearly wanted to be left the hell alone.

Leave her be, night feeds are part of the early days you just need to get used to it. She hasn't read the book.

I was babysitting for a friend once who followed GF, I have never felt so cruel trying to wake that baby up at 10:30pm to feed him (he was so deeply and contentedly asleep), - got as far as turning the light on and unwrapping him, but he clearly did not want to wake up, I couldn't do it. It was mean.

NellyTheElephant - thank you I think that is good advice, I have an instinct that DS is wanting to just sleep so I will leave him be !
Just a note on the whole GF thing though. It does feel that you have to apologise for following a structured feeding routine these days. I demand fed DD (she's 2.5 yrs) and after 11 weeks was in such a mess with her snacking and then not knowing what she wanted...we tried GF (loosely !) and suddenly we were all happy.
DS is a much more contented, relaxed & chilled out baby as he sleeps, then feeds rather than everything getting muddled up & me feeding all day long. It really works for us. I don't follow GF to the note...for a start I feed DS what he wants and if it takes longer or he needs a top up, I give it to him. He is gaining really good weight and everyone comments on how content and calm he is.
So, I understand some people don't like structure or routine, but it worked before for us and it's working now for us. I don't think you can knock GF just because she doesn't have kids - if you cherry pick her book and adapt if for YOUR baby it can be very helpful.
Horses for courses I guess...

Oh and remembering back with DD before - we let her just sleep and didn't wake her for a 10pm feed at about 12 weeks and within a month she was 7 to 7.....so perhaps it bodes well ! hope it's in the genes !

Vangough - Gina worked really well with our demanding screamy DS1 but DS2 sounds like your DS, we tried the DF for a while and all it resulted in was a crying little baby who very clearly did not want a feed! I still look at the GF book for ideas on timings etc but DS2 is definitely a lot less routined by his own choice.

LadyintheRadiator- Your comment is so snidey. Vangough was just wanting an opinion and advice on HER chosen routine for HER baby. Sleep deprivation IS a killer for most people, and for a lot of people getting into a routine where their baby sleeps through the night as soon as possible is essential for their mental, as well as physical health. They're not doing it to be 'evil' to their baby, or underfeeding him/her, just trying to encourage the feeds/sleeps to take place so mum and dad can get some consistent rest.

Vangough, i haven't got any advice for you on the feeding issue. I just wanted to agree with you on your comment about feeling like you need to apologise for having a routine.

We are doing Baby Whisperer E.A.S.Y routine with my 7 week old DD and have been since she was 1 week old. She has taken to it like a duck to water and is a happy and contented little baby who is exceeding all developmental expectations and is generally a joy to behold (i admit to a slight bias in this regard ) and yet when i went to an NCT meet up yesterday there was a subtle though distinct disapproval of her having a routine at all.

Ladyintheradiator - that post not wasn't helpful, what's the point in that??

Anyway re the dream feed, we always gave it about 11ish, but from about 5 wks ds wasn't that interested in that feed but was sleeping till about 4/5ish if we gave it to him.... DH and I weren't sure if he really needed it or not and when intially we dropped it and hed go from 7pm till about 1/2am and then till about 5.30, so after a few nights we reinstated as it meant only one night feed instead of 2 for us, and even though it was hard work and he wasn't that fussed if we got a couple of oz down him hed sleep till 4/5.....and by 7/8weeks he started going till 6/7am......

Also - Totally agree with Vangough and others re feeling you having to apologise on her for your baby having a routine before the age of about 12!!...... And god forbid anyone mentions Gina!

DS is 19 wks old I'm following Rachel Waddilove's book, and really like her routine as its pretty much like Gina but book is less bossy! Oh and it had instructions on how to put a vest on a baby with a diagram and everything so clutched like a comfort blanket at all times when was pg as terrified that I was completely clueless about how to look after a baby!!

Really bugs me that those that don't believe in routines lampoon those who do but never the other way round......

Perhaps we should start a thread along the lines of "my-baby-is-in-a-routine-and-it-works-rather-well-thanks-very-much" !!

If your ds doesn't want a feed at 11pm then I would say leave him to sleep. I was a big fan of routines with ds1 but ds2 blew all that out of the water as he was a total nightmare to put it bluntly. We've had to largely let him decide when he wants to feed but he gradually settled himself into a routine & now at 6 months is an absolute star. Trust your instincts, you know your baby better than anyone else.

Thanks everyone !
Well the little man decided to make some changes to the GF schedule anyway...so we've all adapted ! some days he is way off but then some days spot on, so I am just going with it. Either way if he doesn't want to nap at Gina's time I let him be...and he always ends up re-setting himself later in the day. I do find Gina's timings are pretty much what babies want to do naturally, if not exactly at the same time.
Some days he only wants to nap for 1 hr max ! (and is still grinning on his play mat at the end of the day )
So, we haven't dropped the DF yet as a growth spurt meant he needed all the grub he could get. Considering it in the next week or so. He's sleeping 12 to 4am but still taking 80-90ml (virtually asleep) at 11pm so I think we will keep it for a little while longer.

I've been reading this keenly Vangough as I'm doing GF with my 6 week old triplets and TBH I'm having the same problem with the 10.30 feed. I think I'll try doing a dream feed instead.
To the doubters of the whole routine thing. Try having 3 newborns and see how you fare without a routine!

OMG he is now only sleeping midnight to 2.40am ! what is going wrong !? we are both knackered. What happened to my 4 or 5am wakings....this is worse than when he was newborn. HV says stop the topping up between feeds...and make him stick to the 3 hr schedule (which I have to admit he was better on) the growth spurt seems to have stuffed things up a bit for us...

ladyandthechocolate - credit to you - wow 3 !