Is it possible to still have a "Huckleberry Finn" childhood?

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Have just finished reading "21st Century Boys" and found it a very interesting, if somewhat depressing read.

I have two sons, both under two at the moment so this is not something pressing. But I found myself musing on the type of childhood I would be able to offer them in comparison to the one I enjoyed myself.

I was brought up in the 70s in a small town in the west country and I remember long sunny days spent exploring the local fields and forests, hours spent playing out without adult supervision, running out of the house first thing in the morning and coming back only when you were hungry . . . Does this still exist anywhere in this country anymore?

We live in a market town in the SE of England. We live in a cul-de-sac but rarely see children playing out, partly because moronic drivers race up and down the road as if they're competing in F1 . We have lots of parks and open spaces but children are rarely unsupervised.

I would love to give my boys the kind of childhood I enjoyed but is it possible now? Does anyone else do it? Would I be on my own (and hence my children would be on their own too)?

Interested in your thoughts.

SuePalmer, thank you for joining in and explaining it much better than I have! I am one of those teachers that you mention .

expat, I can't just change my circumstances independently though can I? I can't just decide my street is going to be car free and finding anywhere in the SE of England that is like this is nigh on impossible. Moving out of the area is not an option because of jobs. And anyway, this is a wider issue, about all children, not just mine.

And clearly it's not common sense or stating the obvious, because many many parents don't seem to see any harm in their children having a 24/7 screen based lifestyle.

I don't think it's remotely dangerous to look back at what was right about our childhood and learn from it - we surely learn many lessons from history?

Oh, and bronze, thank you for making me feel old!

Where we live, in a medium sized town, is far far safer from the traffic pov than where dh grew up in London. So his son can go out on his bike: he was never allowed to have one.

Still, the most Enid Blyton experience my dcs ever have is when we spend the summers in Sweden. There 11yos can still go to the beach with their mates and noone raises an eyebrow, they can jump off rocks without anyone calling the police, and stay out until all hours in the holidays without anyone feeling either intimidated or concerned for them.

Though I have to say, as a child growing up in Sweden, I could never understand the Famous Five- that Georgina who spent all her time turfing other people off her island- as if you could own the sea and air and rocks- I thought she was mentally ill or something. Not to mention the never-ending stream of lemonade and chocolates and cakes available to those children; it all seemed very strange.

SuePalmer - have you got a link to that Unicef list? I would like to see where countries like Japan and South Korea fit in.

Yes, Eddie, you can change your own set of circumstances, as you are educated enough to do so. Probably not overnight, but if don't think you can and/or what you would need to trade off is unacceptable to you then it's less likely. We did and the trade off is that we live on the breadline and probably always will.

Expecting movements in society that will enable middle class 7-year-olds in London to roam in the road about playing till all hours is probably going to prove ineffectual.

'I don't think it's remotely dangerous to look back at what was right about our childhood and learn from it - we surely learn many lessons from history?'

What you felt was 'right' about your childhood is, whilst not invalid, subjective and individual, as not everyone or even most may have shared similar experiences or perceived them in the same way.

But hey, it sells books.

Some, including many on this board, now see being turned loose to roam about as neglectful as 24/7 screen time, not as an idyllic experience. I've lived on a very dire council estates in a large city and plenty of young children played out. Because the parents were substance abusers or were otherwise occupied.

Most people have enough to worry about now without the additional stress of assuming they are doing irreparable harm to their children if don't spend vast quantities of time playing out.

But hey, it sells books.

They weren't included omni - insufficient data.

expat, I'm not really sure what your repetition of "it sells books" means, as just because this is in a book doesn't mean it's an invalid argument .

I'm a teacher and see first hand the real damage that constant exposure to tv/video games is doing. Not just because it harms attention spans and can lead to problems with obesity caused by inactivity but also because a large number of children now watch television/access computers without any adult supervision which means they are exposed to things that are totally inappropriate for their age.

As I said before, I'm not talking about children being free to roam because their parents neither know nor care where they are, and what a sad reflection on modern life that this is sometimes the assumption. That is why other parents don't let their children out - because they don't want to be judged too. One poster on here has already said that she has been judged for allowing her children to roam and explore .

But if it's not something that you think is important then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I never said it was an invalid argument, or even an argument at all.

It's just, yes, things have changed and not in a good way.

But do we need more books and research about this, or wouldn't it be better to see more done about it, both at a grassroots individual level and a collective level?

Take Riven, for example, whom I know off the board as well .

Riven embodies Ghandi's, 'You must be the change you wish to see in the world,' by living the values and paradigm shifts she works to see in the world.

She votes accordingly, too.

Still others, myself included, seek to foster movement away from 24/7 screen time by trying to create alternative opportunities for people, including children, through community involvement.

It's not an argument to me or to people like Riven. Or a 'Oh, people don't let their children out unsupervised let's buy books about it.'

It's like, 'Hmm, I don't agree with that, so I'm going to think of ways to give my children a sense of independence tailored to their needs and environment, meanwhile, gotta go organise this hike for Beavers and Ramblers, this beach clean-up, bake cakes for fundraiser for [insert cause] . . . '

You said, 'Interested in your thoughts.'

Well, here are mine. Stop wasting money on books like this and give it to a green charity instead. Stop wasting energy reminiscing. And 'Do the thing that's less passive. Do the active thing. There's more of the human in it.' -Nuala O'Faolain

expat I would agree that organising events and activities within the community which give children an alternative to screen time etc is a fantastic thing.

However, for me the ideal is one step further again. I feel that we spend too much time organising activities for our children, and we should let them use their own imaginations a bit more.

I admit that it is probably easier when you live in a rural area. My DC play out in the fields anyway (and its not because I am lying inside in a drug induced coma!). But when we take them to places we tend to look for places with wide open spaces where they can just play. For example we take them to the sand dunes or to the forest, I take a book and find a nice spot to sit so that I am "around", but they can go off and build dens, look for wildlife, hunt Gruffalos etc... We spent a lovely afternoon yesterday playing in the local castle ruins, with the boys standing on look out points scanning the horizon for incoming enemy ships... which then evolved into watching the dolphins and seals in the bay (they were real, we didn't spot many enemy ships though ) I read a good chunk of my library book while they played.

I work in early years education, and it saddens me that even at 3 children's lives revolve around TV programmes and DS games. My 3 DC are 4, 6 and nearly 8 and although they do have screen time I am delighted that they are able to spend a lot of time making up their own games and having the freedom to play out in the open air.

Thanks Eddie - very interesting. Am at work so only a cursory glance - bit sceptical of the well-being assessment as (presumably) we score badly on single parents and stepfamilies (have got one of these myself) and yet just being in a step family is no indicator of wellbeing - its the parenting around it.

Also interesting in the context of this discussion that our accidents per 100,000 are second least overall - wonder how that would change if we had more general roaming around?

Expat, is it not allowed to buy books, bemoan the lack of freedom and do things in your life to do what you can? Does buying books mean that I don't take them to the woods, help on the playgroup committee, help at fundraisers etc etc does doing one mean you can't do the other?
I enjoy books, I'm also pretty green compared to most. I don't want to have nothing because that the greenest life of all so I'll have books instead of new clothes and walk instead of drive.

Bronze I completely agree.

Reading a book (such as this one) might well inspire people to think about changing their ways. Reading a thread like this might well inspire someone to buy the book, read it and then think about changing their ways...

Another thought which just struck me is the fact that not being allowed out to play on your own actually makes it more dangerous for a child when they are actually allowed to.

Children who are ferried everywhere by car don't learn how to cross the road etc. I help out in the local primary school, teaching Year 1 children how to cross the road. When they start the course, most children don't know how to cross the road safely. Therefore letting them out to play would be very dangerous! Children who walk everywhere (parents don't drive or choose not to use the car as often) already know how to cross roads safely, just from having watched and been taught by their parents. So the more we drive our children, the less traffic aware they become.

'Oh, people don't let their children out unsupervised let's buy books about it.'

Yep, that sums me up .

I'm quite amazed at the assumptions you've made about my lifestyle, my parenting and my values on the basis of the fact that I chose to read this book and start a debate about it!

Not quite sure why you assume that I don't do any of those things? Do you think I just sit at home reading while my kids watch tv?! You don't know anything about me!

My kids are both under two at the moment so I'm not taking them to Beavers, etc for obvious reasons. But, I give them an outdoor lifestyle everyday, and do as much as you can do with a 7mth old and a 23mth old. Those activities will expand as they get older.

And for the record they don't watch tv, but that's our decision as parents and not right for everyone.

My toddler spends hours looking at books - may be I should stop wasting money on such passive activities!

I'm also involved in community activities, although not as much as I have been, and have been a youth group leader and council member in the past.

But, as another poster said, these are all organised activities. I went to Brownies/Guides when I was a kid, but I also spent hours/days playing on my own, with peers not with adults.

That is what is missing.

We are moving house next month and once again I will join local groups and do my bit, but I think dismissing the importance of books bringing these arguments to a wider audience is wrong.

These debates are important and needed and if a book does that then good. And books are never a waste of money IMO!

hi, Eddie, my childhood was bliss too,grew up in Dorset and had days out with my friends on bikes, in fields, hanging from trees.....ah.I now live in London, albeit a green part, and the stress Ive felt from being here with a kid and the constant extra dangers seems unbelievable.i have a garden and theres a hole in the fence to next doors garden and the kids are being very 'free'as much as they can be...with 2 sets of parents around but....not as free as i was.is it a process of feeling safe in your surroundings enough to allow your kids to explore?and about trusting the age of your kid for certain things..ie walking to school on their own etc(some do when they are 11 around here, and maybe earlier if they live close)

Hey, if people want to buy books and moan about it, fine as long as they're also doing something about it. And I never assumed you weren't. Hence, why my posts are for the most part not addressed to any one named person unless I am responding to them after they have personally addressed me. I leave it up to others to get personal, usually, because after having been here a long time, I usually can't be arsed to start something.

But when someone says 'Interested in your thoughts', well, ask an opinion and you'll get it.

Don't agree with it, fair enough.

I haven't made any personal assumptions about your lifestyle, Eddie, because, as a stranger, I really couldn't care less.

Moan away! Try to pick a fight. Get all put out over words on a screen! 'Oh, expat, you're so [insert righteous emotion'!'

Enjoy.

It's a nice day and DS is finally up so time to get them all out and about.

Some books seriously are a waste of money, IMO. I mean, does the world honestly need a biography of Carol McGiffin?

I think books of that sort are called firelighters

Okaaay! Clearly all that fresh air is not doing your stress levels any good!

Not picking a fight at all, but genuinely bemused as to why, if you think all we're doing is moaning (one woman's moan is another's discussion point but there you go) you're bothering to waste so much energy posting on the thread in the first place!

No idea who Carol McGiffin is tbh, so no I wouldn't buy her book, but certainly wouldn't have any problem with someone else buying it - or even starting a discussion on it, positive or otherwise !

miku, it's so difficult isn't it? We're actually moving house cos, although the local school here is excellent, there is no way our DC would ever be able to walk to it whereas our new house has a school that is walking distance albeit over a couple of busy-ish roads.

There is also a big park closer too, although will have to judge as they get older as to how long it is before they go there alone!

We live in a small Welsh town, and children here definitely roam pretty freely from about age 8 upwards. DD is just 8, & she & her friends are starting to go about a lot more on their own.
By the time you get to children in the top class at school (yr 5/6) they definitely hang out in groups, go to the beach etc without adults.
Where we used to live (intentional community on 80 acre farm) the children could definitely do the 'go out & only come back for meals' thing from much much younger (they did have it drilled into them relentlessly not to go near the river/in the lake without adults/on machinery etc!). In fact dd found it quite hard moving into town age 7 and 'going backwards' in terms of freedom. Luckily it was only for a short time because of her age.
So if you want the complete idyllic childhood experience, I would strongly recommend an intentional community set in lots of land. However it is not always quite so idyllic for the adults

'Okaaay! Clearly all that fresh air is not doing your stress levels any good!'

I don't get stressed about words on screens unless they happen to be from the council or debt collectors.

YOU solicited other peoples' thoughts, under the pretext of being interested in them.

I submitted mine, which included not just what I thought about the book but also what I believe is the significance that high house prices, privitisation (and subsequent lack of investment in)of essential public services and capitalism play in how childhood has developed in the past two decades.

These were not acknowledged because they weren't couched in whatever you saw as your point in starting this thread, which is a book review and discussion about a book.

For which there is already a topic.

Tavker you live near me (although I am in a village rather than a town). My nearly 8 year old plays out with his friends and walks to school with them too.

Pembrokeshire rocks (ac Ceredigion, wrth gwrs!)

Where do I find this international community Takver?!

I'm obviously living in the wrong place!

(Not just starting threads in the wrong place for which I've been told off already !).

I think it's an intentional community Eddie, not an international one. It's a sort of commune type thing.

Interestingly enough, there is a thread here in Active from a member who received a nasty letter through her letterbox from a neighbour about the noise her children make playing out.

And another poster who lives in Belgium pointed out there is a law there that children cannot be a noise nuisance.

It would be interested to find out the ages of people who complain about such noise.

Were they the former 'play out' generation? What changed about their attitude, as now they are shaping/trying to shape how others behave.

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