Total lack of respect from friend's children

[girlynut]

As a working mum, I have come to an arrangement with my neighbour and we take it in turns to walk the kids to school and have them after school during the week. She has a 5 year old and 8 year old boys. I have a 4 year old in the same class as her youngest.

Whilst her youngest and my son get on well, I have real problems with her eldest. He is moody and rude and does exactly as he pleases. She herself describes him as "a hard child to love".

I understand that kids play up and whinge a bit but he is relentless and always miserable. Today he was throwing stones at me before we'd reached the end of the street. I told him that wasn't nice behaviour and to stop but he continued. So I used my best Supernanny voice, told him his behaviour was unacceptable and I wanted an apology. He stuck his tongue out and ran off ahead. When i caught up with him, I held his coat and again calmy asked for an apology, at which point he lashed out at me yelling until I let go. He then went and rolled in the library flowerbed squashing all the flowers and getting filthy. By the time we reached school I was seething!

I have tried to engage him by talking about his interests and what he's been up to but he either shrugs or doesn't respond at all!

I want to discuss this with my friend but I'm not sure how. Her husband recently moved out and I know the kids are taking it hard but I really feel like she doesn't discipline them at all. Last week I was picking up some spilt cereal at hers and both boys stood throwing handfuls of cereal at my face whilst I was knelt down - she didn't bat an eyelid!

I've also noticed a difference in my son in that he's becoming very aggresive and physical (maybe just a side-effect of starting school?) and he's started back-chatting with loads of attitude - "Humph, sooorrrrrr-rrrreeeeee!" is his latest!

Our arrangement works for us both but I'm not prepared to keep dealing with her boy's bad behaviour every time. I know my son isn't perfect but I know he wouldn't talk back to an adult, especially if he was being told off. Any suggestions how I might delicately ask her to teach her boys a bit of respect?! Or am I over-reacting to normal 8 year old behaviour?

The 8yo's behaviour sounds a bit extreme to me - throwing stones at you and rolling in the flower-beds!!!

And throwing cereal at you

I'm afraid I wouldn't want to put up with any of that, and if the children wouldn't behave for me, I wouldn't have them in my house. I would sort out a different childcare arrangement.

Children can become more physical once they start school, but it sounds like his nearest role-models aren't really setting a good example. Peer pressure, and all that.

That kind of behaviour isn't something I'd put up with I'm afraid. Could you sit your friend down with a cup of coffee and say the arrangement isn't working out for you because of her son's behaviour and is there anything she could suggest that would improve the situation? His difficult behaviour could be down to dad not being on the scene but if she's keen to keep the arrangement going, perhaps she will do more to keep her son in line.

He sounds incredibly unhappy.

I cannot believe he was throwing cereal in your face and she didn't say anything to him! No wonder he had no qualms about throwing stones at you.

I have been a paid, registered childminder and had this kind of behaviour and I stuck at it, the boys behaviour very very slowly changed (he was 8 starting with me) - I am talking years of patience, firmness, kindness, listening, etc. His parents had split too and turned out he had learnt most of his behaviour from dad (anger issues and lack of respect) and was the bad sibling at home, the bad boy at school etc. His behaviour was abhorrent but I felt very sory for him. I would not have put all this work in though for an informal arrangement with a neighbour, and definately not if it was affecting my own child's behaviour.

I think you need a frank talk with the mum TBH.

I'd be stopping very quickly - why on earth should you have to discipline her kids as well as your own, not worth the hassle imo

Yes, I agree with cat64. I have 6 and 9 year old boys and this is beyond normal (her reaction or lack of is, too). He sounds very angry, and she's possibly worn down. You don't need this hassle, especially if it's affecting your DCs, but maybe you can help her to get some help.

but op has an arrangement, so stopping would affect all concerned.
how about ignore the bad behaviour and praising the good behaviour?

how long has this been going on? since september?

can you make alternative arrangements?

slarty I got the impression by what she was saying she'd already tried that - engaging him in conversation

maybe the mum is too frightened to discipline him at the moment due to all the upheaval at home?

I understand it suits but maybe mention it to her and see if she can have it resolved by after the easter holidays?

This is not normal for a normal child, but it is normal behavior for an insecure child who is desperately seeking discipline.

If she didn't react to her child throwing cereal in another adult's face, she probably doesn't react to anything, which is horrifying for a child. So he's seeking reactions from you, as he's figured he can at least get you to react. I wouldn't be too worried about offending her by disciplining her child, because it sounds like right now she doesn't give a shit about what he does and does not do.

If I were you, I'd treat him as you'd treat your own child. Personally, for that display of behavior, I'd sanction quite strongly. You get to have quite a lot of time with him, and therefore quite a lot of input.

COmputer time is currency for children of 8, don't be frightened to use it. He can earn it, or he can lose it. Cajole and threaten him with it, and stick to doing what you say will do.

I don't think discipline is cruel, I think discipline is a kindness in an uncertain child's life. It gives them a constant to cling to.

Thanks for the advice ladies.

Slarty - yes, it's been since Sept but has got a lot worse since their dad left at xmas.

I sat down with my friend last night. She said she would "have a word" and to let her know if it continued but TBH I don't hold out much hope for an improvement. I think she and I just have different ideas about what is acceptable and how to deal with it.

We discussed discipline and she said she hadn't needed to use the naughty step for several months. Her preferred method of discipline is distraction (I'm not sure how this teaches consequences for bad behaviour). Whilst I was there the children were wandering into the kitchen, helping themselves to sweets, dropping the wrappers on the floor...and she just wanted to show me her new dress!

I'm meant to be babysitting next weekend but she thinks that the children will play up if I'm there (all previous babysitters have resigned!) so she is going to get them to bed before I arrive. This means she'll be late for her concert and the kids will never know mum has gone out. Seems like a lot of pussy-footing around to me!

If there's no improvement, I will gradually wind down our arrangement. I have family and other neighbours I can rely on and I really think this is her problem to deal with, not mine.

Oh dear. You have to have consequences for bad behaviour at 8. This is not young toddlers we are talking about ....

"Or am I over-reacting to normal 8 year old behaviour? "

No it isn't normal for an 8yr old. But it might be normal for a very distressed 8yr old whose dad has just left. I feel for you but not sure what you can do.