Still not sleeping all night at nearly 5 - I can't cope!

[minkulus]

My DD is nearly 5. She does not sleep through the night. Never has done properly. She sleeps through on average 2 nights in every 6. I am finding it so hard still and I am also pregnant. I am dreading her waking the baby and getting the new one into bad habits IYSWIM.
Sorry for the disjointed post, I am so exhausted and feeling really low and she is still awake upstairs......
Advice anyone?

What does she want when she wakes up?

dc3 just to wake up and be wide awake turned out she had too much adrenalin which was due to retained moro reflex, we had it treated and all is now quiet!

Is it a sleep association problem or do you just not know?

what happens when she wakes up?

does she need you to go to her? i can't help feeling that unless she's very upset by dreams then at her age you should be able to work towards her lying quietly till she goes back to sleep... does she have the room as dark or light as she wants it? can she tell the time? does she have a clock? if she can't yet do it easily have you tried the bunny type 'morning' clocks?

many adults wake in the night (my DP does about four or five times!) so i don't think that's a problem in it's own right if she can get back to sleep.

My dd (with the sleep problem) hardly needed any sleep at all, went to sleep about 9pm and up again at 6am and up to 3 wakings during the night enquiring whether it was time to get up yet, she was nearly 4 at the time. Now she sleeps longer and doesn't wake anymore. It certainly wasn't a sleep association problem or attention thing she just didn't ever feel tired or sleepy.

mine haven't sleep through 2 nights in a row until they start school . dc3 starts in Jan 2011...

It is so hard with smaller ones around, or babies, so I have every sympathy (but not much practical help, I'm afraid).

Oh, I really feel for you. Does she go back to sleep, or is she wide awake? Could it be that she needs the loo, or is it habit?
Is she at school full time yet? My DD sleep is better now she is at school, and is much improved since she began Y1.

Don't worry about her waking up the baby, or visa versa, IME, they are blissfully unaware of each other!

Sorry, that was a lot of questions I asked you there!

Thanks for the replies so far.
My DD is rather like CarGirl's DD. She normally goes off OK but wakes up at hourly intervals until about 3am then drops off until 6ish then is wide awake and wanting to get up. She doesn't seem unduly tired during the day and doesn't nap in the day. She is a really bad eater and I tried stuffing her full before bed which did help for a few days, but it has reverted again.
When she wakes up she looks at her books- I have tried EVERY method of sleep training etc whilst she was little and now just let her read to herself as I am so knackered with getting in and out to her.
I dread going to bed myself as I know i will be awake most of the night. It is making me so angry (mostly with myself for being so crap at getting her to sleep through).

Mine is 2.9 and still wakes up,her older sister was sleeping through at about 2.3 just at the time I was about to give birth,so I have had five years of sleepless nights and I sympathise deeply.At its worst I could barely talk properly,I made so many mistakes in my speech I was worried there was something really wrong with my brain!I have no helpful advice at all,I just wanted to say that I feel for you.

Well the good news is that these people can probably help you.

i'VE LINKED to the screening questionnaire but have a look around the site it's very interesting and will hopefully answer your questions.

www.inpp.org.uk/questions/index.php

My only regret is that I didn't find out about NDD sooner and I had to endure that sleep deprevation for as long as I did!

My DS didn't sleep through until he was 3.5, but had a similar pattern - would go off alright but then wake me a couple of times in the night then finally really early (5am-ish) ready to start the day - horrendous!

What made a difference in the end was a combination of lots of nightlights (he would wake up and be scared) and bribery - he got a gold star for every time he didn't wake me and a reward at the end of the week if he got 7 gold stars. This was particularly good for the early waking.

I think this should work well with a 5 yo but perhaps you've tried it?

I also spoke to a lovely woman from an organisation called Portage, who specialise in special needs kids, who often have sleep issues. I really liked their approach, which wasn't about controlled crying (which I had tried but hated).

Can probably find contact details for them if you're interested.

DS is now a champion sleeper, so there is hope.

Thanks CarGirl. I looked at the link but we don't seem to fit the criteria.
I will give them a ring in the week, they may have some ideas.

Fluffles - she has the bunny clock and has in the past set it to go off in the middle of the night! So it now just sits beningly on her bedside. She does shout out to me which is part of the problem as I am worried she will wake baby etc. My DH manages to sleep through it all however , so hoping the new LO will inherit Daddy's oblivion!

BooKangerooWonders - my DD is at school full time and comes home very tired, but by bed time seems to have woken up again!
Havoc - I think it is habit now, but is proving impossible to break. I can't let her scream herself hoarse (as a kindly friend suggested!) so I do end up going in to her (I know, rod for own back etc!)

Helly - That's part of the problem, I am so exhausted everything else just gets put on the back burner. I forget so many things it makes me look so slap dash and people have stopped asking me to do stuff because they know I am unreliable. I also would love to have one day where I don't worry about the nighttime IYSWIM?

Thanks also Sheila. I shall look into that.
I am going off to bed now - I have just been up and she has dropped off so I'm going to get myself ready for the night ahead.
I sometimes wonder if I would be better living on redbull and proplus and just not bothering to go to sleep.......I know why sleep deprivation is used as torture. It is bloody effective!
Night all and i will check in tomorrow to see if there are further words of wisdom.
Thanks.xxx

the test for too much adrenalin is quick and easy so if there is a practioner near you it may be worth going for an initial appointment anyway.

At least mine used to come to see me and ask "is it time to get up yet" she used to put herself to bed as well. But yep the newborn slept through the night at 10 days meanwhile she was waking me up 3 times per night, not fun!

I'm back! Thanks to you all for the support, we had a reasonable night - only up twice, but I have a raging headache from crying so hard. Got off here and went up to bed but spent ages blubbing and generally feeling sorry for myself! Feel a lot better for having talked about it, but still not sure how to progress. I may talk to health professional to see if they can refer us anywhere.
Hoping all your LOs are well and thinking of all of those with sleepless kids!
xx

Buy her a new big girl ditigal clock and tell her that its night time until the first number is a 6 or 7 etc (you might need to cover up the other numbers with a sticker). Tell her if she wakes up before then its still the middle of the night. The bunny clocks are good for very little ones, but not at that age at they can reset them!

My DD has a moonlight night light - enough light that she's not scared but dark enough not to disturb her sleep.
moonlight

It sounds as if she is waking up in the night and doesn't really know how to settle herself - v normal to wake up in the night, even hourly, but a problem that she can't settle herself. My DD sucks her finger, not ideal but at least she sleeps. My DS sucks on a bunny comforter. Not really sure what to suggest for that because both my kids have sleeping props, acquired at a few months old - but it means they can always settle themselves.

Is she developmentally normal - ie is this symptoms of other problem?

Have a star chart leading to a treat she really wants.

Also I am sure you do this but have a very strict bedtime routine - eg bath at 6pm, into PJs at 6.30pm, bedtime stories until 6.50pm, teeth brushed - same every time without exception.

Is she dry at night? ie is she waking to go to toilet? At that age she should be able to go on her own if she needs, but cutting down drinks before bedtime should mean she shouldn't need to go.

Also tell her when she wakes in the night although you will come in to her, you will not let her get out of bed etc and then she will miss out on her star.

Hello. We have been through this for the last year and has now finally been stopped, I posted how we were told to do this on another thread so have just cut and pasted.

Oh you could be me 2 weeks ago, DD up 2/3/4 times anight, won't go to sleep without a story or sleeping with us. I burst into tears on the HV and then a kind MNer pointed me in the direction of Millpond Sleep Clinic.

This is what they told us to do.

On HV's advice we slept with DD in her room (we saw HV on a hursday and had consultation booked on the following MOnday), this gave her the opprtunity and us to actually sleep the whole night through as it gave her the confidence to do so.

When we talked to the clinic, we were advised to go down the gradual withdrawal method. We followed what they call a nightime hygiened routine although we have stopped this now as it didn't work for us as a family. This took place 15 minutes before bedtime so a quick but warm realxing bath, pyjamas and milk and then into bed. DD's natural falling asleep time was 8pm. So the idea was to get her into bed by 7.30, read to her until 7.45 or read and a massage and then we sit quietly on the sleepy cushion until DD is asleep and for 10 minutes after as this is how long it takes for children to fall into a deep sleep. If she woke in the night we took her back to bed and again sat on the sleepy cushion for 10 minutes after she went to bed. DD also has an ipod with stories on which lasts all night. You move the sleepy cushion every 3 nights until you are outside. Now we have introduced a light on a timer that she is not alowed out of her room until that comes on, we are working on that one though, but in 10 days the difference has been amazing. Yes she still wakes sometimes in the night but take last night, she cam in to our room at 12.15, and it was straight back to sleep without me having to stay there.

Hope this helps.

Oh thank you for the newer posts. I am interested in the different methods given. The sleepy cushion sounds like it might work. She has a bean bag in her room so it wouldn't be too uncomfy for me!
She does have a very routine bedtime - bath drink teeth story etc and we don't alter it for much, even when on hols etc.
She doesn't have any special needs or developmental probs as far as I know - she just doesn't seem to want to sleep (or actually need it!).
I might also try the light on a timer and digital clock ideas.
Thanks again for the support and I am looking forward to reporting back on a whole night's sleep [wishful thinking smiley!]
xxxxx

Have no advise sorry but just wanted to offer my sympathy. DS didn't start sleeping through until the week before his 5th birthday and still regularly wakes up at 6am and has to be bribed into keeping quiet.

Also wanted to say that because you are pregnant need to persuade your DH to help you with his. You need your sleep as much as him and him being oblivious is no excuse.

I also think going to see someone with her would help - even if just GP - so that your DD realises that its a problem and that you are totally serious about sorting it out, and that you will no longer be at beck and call all night.

What would happen if you were away for the night? Would she cry herself hoarse whilst your DH slept?

MumNWlondon Do you know that's just what I was thinking re overnight without me! When she sleeps over at my mother's she sleeps all night without a peep apparently. I am never sure if this is completely true or another stick with which to beat the crappy mother that i so obviously am!
I am seriously thinking of having at least one night away by myself when my DH returns from his latest business trip. I think some of the problem is resentment on my part - he gets to swan off to great conferences etc, and then when he gets home he gets to sleep undisturbed as well! grr!