setting boundaries... or just being your child's friend?

[boundaryRider]

My sis seems to have real difficulties with getting her kid to behave, and I am wondering if it is to do with expectations. I haven't said anything to Dsis, because I don't know if my point of view would help, also because expecting a 2 year old to "behave" is probably unrealistic - but I can see patterns here that might be worth trying to change.... Anyone got advice here?
(sorry about length)

My sister has a 2yo daughter and has been a SAHM since DN (ie my niece) was born. The kid is used to having her mum on tap 24 hours a day. If Dsis tries to do anything independently (like having a shower), DN throws a tantrum, and Dsis instantly stops what she's doing and goes and plays with DN - if she needs to do anything she has to have someone else there to play with DN. When DN thinks she might not get her own way instantly, DN hits, kicks and pulls her mother's hair, and my sister just says "gently, gently, don't hurt Mummy", but doesn't ever say any form of "no, don't do that". My sister frequently refers to the bruises and missing chunks of hair as "badges of honour" - as she referred to the sleepless nights, puke on clothes etc in the first year.

That's fine if you're just being positive about stuff that's a bit icky - but in some way she seems to really believe that it is her place as a mother to give up every ounce of energy she has to her daughter, and to give in to whatever her daughter wants.

This is consistent with how we were parented. Our parents often talked about how they gave up everything for us, also never said "I don't think you should do X" or "I would like you to do Y", just let us do whatever, and moaned about our behaviour behind our backs, and sometimes exploded and screamed at us for things about which we had no idea might be inappropriate.

Mum and Dsis are also very passive aggressive in dealing with friends, family, employers etc. Their lives seem to be a contant battle, but they never set out how they would like anyone else to behave, or take steps to make sure things go smoothly. They regard it as rude and inappropriate to set boundaries - and thus spend a lot of time moaning behind other people's backs.

I am trying to tread carefully here, because they often tell me I'm too forthright, bossy and rude, and too strict with my (5yo) DS.

I try to be polite at all times, but I do things differently - if someone does something to me that I don't accept, then I will gently explain why it's unacceptable and ask them if it would be ok if they did (some other thing) instead next time. I really dislike passive-aggressiveness - when
dealing with other people I try to be as clear as possible, and as reasonable and polite as possible, about my motivations, expectations, etc. I also try to smile at people a lot...

My DS is mostly well behaved, and if he gets silly or (unreasonably) grumpy, we tell him he is out of order, how we'd like him to behave, and give him an opportunity to calm down and start behaving properly. He knows that if he says "please may I have a chocolate bar at the end of the supermarket" he will probably get one, but if he kicks off and screams blue murder in the chocolate aisle, then he definitely won't get any. He has known this since he was about 2.5.

We have always made it very clear how we think he should behave. Not just teaching him manners, but also trying to teach him to empathise with others, and to think about how he fits into the bigger picture - and that other people are generally nice if you're nice and happy. So if he gets into a fight with X, we say "how would X be feeling now?" and "what might be a simpler way of getting X to be nice to you?" instead of only saying "don't punch your schoolfriends when they say stupid things".

Would it be really inappropriate to discuss this with my Dsis? I don't want her to feel like I'm imposing my way of life on her, but I think her life could be so much easier (and her daughter's life could too...).

Has dsis asked for your help/advice?

no. Which is why I was seeking advice here. It just seems like such a dysfunctional set of behaviours to teach a 2 year old, when some gentle rules might make the kid (and Dsis) feel more secure about the world.

I'm pretty sure your sis would go immediately on the defensive, however maybe these issues are different between siblings? (don't have any myself so no experience).

I started a similar thread recently and got lots of great advice. The general feeling seemed to be that while directly confronting parenting differences is rarely going to go well, you can feel confident about sticking to your own parenting rules in your own house and as regards your own ds. Having said that if your family feel able to tell you they think you're being too strict then they can't really complain if you give your opinion. Your DN is still very little but this is the age you start with boundaries and expectations. If you can I would make clear what your expectations are for all children in your house and your sis and dn (as she gets older) will have to be respect those.

I understand how frusrating this is. I especially hate the comments about how lucky we are to be able to take our dcs out for meals etc, as if they were just born being able to sit at a table and eat nicely.

Have you ever told your dn off in front of your sis? Just wondered if the next time she kicks her mum you could say firmly "Hey don't kick your mum, that really hurts." Maybe your sis lacks confidence in being assertive with her daughter and might even appreciate you stepping in?

Do you know how your sister feels about the way you and she were parented? You've obviously thought about it, seen the pitfalls, and decided to do things differently. Do you get any impression that she thinks about it, or feels there were problems with it? That might give you a way in to saying "I know mum and dad did X, but it always made me feel Y so I make sure I do Z with my DS" That might at least encourage her to reflect on the effect it had on both of you.

But she may not feel the same way about it that you did, specially if she shows no signs of parenting differently yourself, so you may just convince her you're odd!

I don't think you can ever tell people what you think they should do without it all ending badly. But you could try to explain to her why you do things your way, and hope she might see some value in it.

thanks for the replies - good ideas.

I have told DN off once, when she tried to hit and kick me because I wouldn't get off the telephone to play with her, and her mum was in the toilet. It was a work phonecall - not something I could just put on hold to play.

So when Dsis came out of the loo and found me telling off DN (holding her and saying "no kicking", and DN screaming with rage), of course she took DN and said "don't worry, Mummy's here, I won't be nasty to you, you play with me instead" - of course DN then was happy for 5 minutes and then started kicking and screaming at her mother instead.

I just explained what had happened and left it at that. But next time might think about trying to explain more...

That would have made me so !! I don't know how you didn't say anything tbh. I think I would have HAD to say something like "Your daughter was kicking and hitting me and that's just not ok." How can she think that's ok????

I think she thinks that you don't introduce difficult concepts to children before they're ready - and that saying no to anything is too difficult. or something. also of course 2 year olds cant be naughty can they, so you don't tell them what to do

Our parents are really weird about setting boundaries... they put up with people and activities they loathe all the time, because they can't just say "sorry we can't go out we're busy"... my sister has done quite well out of this absence of boundary-setting, by ignoring parental passive-aggressiveness and continuing to ask for things from them.

omg boundaryR are you my sister?!

Seriously though, this sounds like my family and I'm the crap passive aggressive sister. I do instinctively lean to towards a more gentle & understanding form of parenting, and often think my sister can be too harsh. I guess I feel that kids aren't always the little monsters they're made out to be and try to remember what it was like to be a child. I want to be a kind and loving parent not one my children fear.

However I really don't want to be like my mother and I don't want my kids to walk all over me the way I have done to her, or for my children to turn out all passive aggresive like me. I'm starting to think i might need to be a bit stricter and hope i never get to the stage where I think it's okay for my child to hit and pull my hair!!

hehe WLTC - no i doubt you're my sister if you don't yet think it's ok for your kids to pull your hair... ;-)

I absolutely don't think that it should be anything to do with fear. If anything I feared my parents because they were so unpredictable, and I knew that whatever I did they would bitch about me behind my back.

DS isn't frightened of us, he's happy. When he goes off on one and we remind him how to deal with situations effectively, he often looks and sounds quite relieved that we have intervened, got him away from whatever it was that was making him silly/upset, and given him a chance to get himself together.

Mostly we try to prevent him going off on one, anyway. We try to make it about him feeling in control of his actions, rather than about telling him he has to be good. He knows he can ask us for things/ ask us to do things, and that we will either say yes or explain why we say no. and that it's not the end of the world if we do say no.

But also, we pick our battles.

As the op says, this isn't just about parenting principles but about personalities, values, even beliefs.

I am somewhat familiar with these kind of conflicts from my own extended family.

From what I've seen the best advice is: live and let live.

If they criticise you, bite back with gusto and let them have your thoughts with a minimum of filtering.
Other than that leave them to it. Pick your battles, as it were!

Your sister is not a useless parent. Not a helpful thing to say and most likely very incorrect. Some people on here appear to believe children should be seen and not heard, must not inconvenice their adult world or mess up their immaculate house...

Anyway back to your sister, she might be in it for the long haul and her kid may turn out okay it just might take longer, rather than quick fix discipline. Many childcare experts will back her up. Even diciplinarian Dr Green thinks children need to be spoken to gently before the age of 2. Cut her some slack. she's clearly a different personality to you and being a diciplinarian may be against the grain fo her. she has compassion for her child which is not a bad thing.

DaddyJ is right - prob best to live and let live. But if you're genuinely concerned and not just being judgy, tell her you're worried about her being treated badly by her children and being an unhappy parent (not how the kid will turn out - this will be harder for her to hear).

Who knows which parenting method will work. They jury's still out ... you might both turn out with great, happy, well adjusted kids but just went about it in different ways. There is no exact science to pareting.

thanks for the recent posts.

I'm not being judgy - have been living and letting live all my life given that mother and sister always definitely knew that their own behaviour was perfect and I was a revolting little brat.

But the tide turns, and me being a bossy forthright child has turned into me being a relaxed, happy and straightforward adult - and my sister has gone from being perfect, to being moany, passive-aggressively powerless and self-centred in an unhappy kind of way - rather like our mother.

I'll let her do things her own way........

interesting isn't it. sometimes the personality we inherit overshadows the way we are raised, and it seems you have turned out okay despite your mother's choices, while your sister has taken after your mother. Maye your DN will be okay afterall if she has the right traits.

all the best for you and your family.