How do you punish/deal with blatant defiance?

[unicorn]

My 6 year old dd sometimes just stares me hard in the face and says 'NO!'.. I'm not going to do x,y,or z - it makes me feel and really rather useless.

How do YOU deal with such an attitude?

No real advice I'm afraid Unicorn - just wanted you to know that our DDs and we sound very alike ! Mine's only 4.5 buy boy oh boy is she stroppy !!!

piffle that is DEFFO BRILL idea re NO to everything

Do you follow through with your threats Unicorn?

The threat about missing the school trip...would you have actually carried it out?

I've learnt with my ds1 that I've been making empty threats for too long..they sort of creep up on you! Establish what her real fave activities are and what you really are prepared to punish her with - give her warning that she will lose/wont do X if she doesn't comply and then....carry it out. My guess is, that you wouldnt have to be too mean before she gets the message

Unicorn I can totally sympathise. We have trouble finding anything that DD (5 going on 15) cares enough about to remove as a punishment. In fact, she has now started giving ME punishments (much as Batters' DD started a star chart for her!). Last week both the heads of our electric toothbrush were removed and hidden as a punishment for "hurting her feelings" by not letting her watch a video. And she is too big for me to lift bodily up a flight of stairs to put in her room. AAAArrrggh!

Currently going thru' this BIG TIME with ds, who is nearly 6.
Very disobedient, very defiant, very prone to deliberately winding us up (esp dh who rises to the bait). Latest is to respond to warnings with "yeah yeah, whatever" which makes me seethe (tho' I try not to let him see it).

I have decided to be VERY tough. Have written out a set of house rules, which we are trying to make him stick to. But I must say I'm worn out with it.

blimey janinlondon there is NO WAY i would stand for that! is there not another room you can put her in for time out?

I would personally say every time she does something like that one of HER possesions is removed.

In fact there was someone on here who knew someone who took EVERYTHING out of their childs room. Eacht ime they were good they got something back.

Read the pasta thread???????????

I think some kids are just more compliant and biddable than others - and mine is not! She simply mirrors our actions. Taking things away from her set her an appallingly bad example and now she thinks it is acceptable behaviour because we did it. Pasta jar had similar problems. She thought she could "pay" me with her earned pasta points to get me to do things she wanted. When it didn't work for her, it stopped working for us. Unfortunately I can see her point. And saying "because I said so" or "because I am in charge" is just asking for trouble!

think you are right Jan... some kids are def more compliant than others, and the parents with those kids think all kids can be like that - and can't understand why parents like us have such a hard time.

I think that is why some things work for some kids - but don't for all.

btw...Some adults are also more challenging (less accepting of being told what to do)than others - and that's not such a bad thing is it?!!!

I'm with you Unicorn - did you ever try the naughty step? My how I laughed when that one was suggested to me.....!

I've started doing the Warwick Dyer system with my kids (dd is 14, ds is 11). Similar to the pasta jar idea, you give them a set amount of pocket money per day (in my case 50p each), and if they misbehave you give them one warning to stop before fining them a penny (could be more for a more serious transgression, but the important thing is that you don't run out of money to take away from them).

I thought it sounded ridiculous at first, because the amounts of money are so small you would think they wouldn't care, but in fact it works really well because (I think) the system works more on a symbolic level i.e. I am in charge, which taps into what children really want - for their parents to be in charge.

Before I used this system I used to do a lot of shouting because I would run out of punishments because I would remove privileges, or ground them and leave myself nowhere else to go if they misbehaved again. Then I would get frustrated and shout at them, getting really upset and stressed in the process. With the Dyer system I feel a lot calmer because I know what to do if they misbehave and they know what to expect too.

Then at the end of each day I give each of them their money and, if they have lost any through misbehaviour I ask them if they know why they're not getting the full amount - and they often surprise me by reeling off several incidents, showing that they are fully aware of what they have done. This works well because when you give out the money each day you have an opportunity to talk with them about their behaviour and reflect on it in a calm way.

Spacedonkey your kids can probably see some value in the money because they are older. I can see that this would work for some children. But DD didn't take her money at the end of the day. She left it in the special jar in the kitchen, in case she needed to "pay" me for something the next day (ie: try to bribe me for sweets or tv time). I think the logic of it is lost on her. Maybe she's just not very bright.

Why did she pay you for sweets/TV time jan?

No no...I didn't give them to her. But in her mind all it took to get what you want was a penny. So she thought she could use the system on me the way I was using it on her. When I refused to give her sweets or extra tv time in return for a penny, she stopped taking any notice of the whole money system.

Oh I see. I'm sure no one system works for all children. I've found this one very effective with my kids so far (who initially rejected it, saying they didn't care about the money blah blah - but I insisted on continuing with it even if they threw the money back in my face!). I know Dyer uses this with younger children as well, although I would've thought it wouldn't work on very small children. The key point of it for me was taking back control and not feeling that they were in charge of me, manipulating me constantly with their behaviour.

janinlondon your story about the toothbrushes has got me laughing until tears are rolling down my cheeks. Thank you for cheering me up. My DD is going through a stroppy 'don't care/you can't make me' phase. Been there and done that to most of the things listed so can empathise.

I wrestled with her until she was undressed the other night and then picked her up and put her in the bath. Quite an effort that as she is a big built girlie! You can imagine the reaction that got. Probably a bad idea but it had got the point where I was not going to be backing down to a four year old who was in a bad mood and shouting at me. She's not always like it, but sometimes it seems that way...

I come down very hard on my two if they try to pull a stunt like this. And if they are little youcan send them to their room! You just have to say it with enough steely resolve. In fact bluff gets you a long way with teenagers as well. If the kids I teach try the 'You can't make me' line I stare them down and say very calmly and icily 'Do you want to bet?' 9 times out of 10 it works a charm.

I'm a petite, disabled lady, mother to a strong boy, so getting into physical opposition hasn't been an option for me since he was about 3 1/2.

You have to do it by mind control. I sometimes find that saying " I don't want anything to do with you" works. Leave the room, and if he follows then just stare at the ceiling, humming to yourself. DS will eventually take the hint, and take himself to his room.

Once I saw a TV programme about this couple who had fostered literally a hundred children or so. They had turned around the most intransient, difficult, even disturbed children.

The thing that struck me was that what made them such excellent parents was that they figured out what each child needed. They had principles and house rules that everyone stuck to, but they adapted their parenting approach for each child, they bent the rules even, sometimes. They figured out how each child ticked, & thus how to get them to cooperate and be the best person they could be.

I think that is good parenting, and that you're right Unicorn, each child is an individual. Your mission should you choose to accept it... is to figure out how your child ticks. What she needs.

Just keep experimenting & you will figure out what works with her. All we can do is keep throwing in different ideas.

Very True Qzebra,
You would think that after 6 years I would know my own child wouldn't you? But she has always been difficult to fathom (which is why we have had so many problems with her)

Those books about knowing why your baby cries used to make me despair... she wasn't a 'readable' baby, and so it continues.

Another thought to throw into this interesting discussion...
Peer group pressure?
I think she could be testing me out - because of confusion as to what is acceptable.

Some of her schoolmates are totally out of order (IMO) in the way they speak to their carers(often grandparents) and I think it she really doesn't understand adults... ie if it's ok for Sophie to talk to her Gran like that, then why can't I talk to you?

We adults,are confusing the issue I think.. I read a quote once about parents trying to be friends with their kids, instead of parents.. and when that happens respect is gone.

I had a chat with her today about manners, and she reflected that one her friends never said please or thankyou to me and it wan't nice.... so I think there is some hope!

JaninL (naughty step indeed!!I know exactly where you are coming from)

great point Qzebra - figuring out how your child ticks sounds like the key to helping them behave acceptably.

Unicorn, it's very hard when your child doesn't like toys that much. My oldest ds was like this, too. He also loved verbal sparring, bargaining and having quarrels - all the more attention for him. At age 6 I was still able to carry him to his room and I did this, as he hated being deprived of company.

Just throwing in another thought - do you think your dd is more defiant when she is overtired or, conversely, if she is under active? how much energy does she have? if she get physically tired after lots of running around, would that make her more compliant, do you think?

TM she is probably more defiant when tired, her energy levels have always been on the high side (feared she was hyperactive as a toddler)

Actually, emotionally she is not very stable (ie was always prone to excessive/extreme tantrums)and I do wory about her psyche, she just seems very fragile (very dramatic personality).

btw Whenever I did take her to her room she would go mental - and I mean scarily so.. screaming hysterically, out of control - it terrified both me and ds.
I figured it was too damaging to let her carry on like that.