How do you punish/deal with blatant defiance?

[unicorn]

My 6 year old dd sometimes just stares me hard in the face and says 'NO!'.. I'm not going to do x,y,or z - it makes me feel and really rather useless.

How do YOU deal with such an attitude?

they wouldn't say no becuase i dont ask i tell and i have a special voice that pronounces every syll;able in a posh voice.

however shoudl this unlikley thing occur i would get dh to physically remove them to their room as at 12 and 15 they are too big for me to carry.

at 6yo, i would have carried them to thir room. if they refused to stay in room i would hold the door handle, for about 10 mins.

Mmmmm - I do the same as you - but have often wondered whether they do it because I tell them to or because they know that I won't hesitate to deprive them of something 'good'.

Having said that they are still at the age when if I count to 3, they dive to do what I've told them to before I get to 3. DH and I piss ourselves laughting over what we will do the day we get to 3 before they move

have to agree with custardo... she is 6! of course you can make her go to her room.

the problem is that you aren't carrying out the threats. you tell her to stop and she refuses. you tell her she'll go to her room and she refuses so you just walk off... so why would she think you mean it?

If you tell her she will go to her room then you have to make her go. if that means carrying her to it and holding the door shut then so be it!

i would imagine that she DOES care deep down about things. but she knows that if she says "i don't care" then you don't do it...

lol soapy - i still do the counting thing. but when i get to 3...its a days grounding!! ha ha. but like you i often wondered if this would have to go up to 5 or 10!!

Custy - LOL. Sounds stange but my best parenting tip ever would be counting to 3. I have no idea why it works but it does

I take it that grounding is the 15 YO equivalent of no sleepover/ no party???

Like custardo et al have said I physically put my daughter in a room when she has pushed me to my limit. We don't use her bedroom as dd loves it in their so it is hardly a punishment, we send or carry dd to the utility room which she cannot leave until she has apologised - it rarely takes long.

i never did entrtainment that involved other children as ...well as i dont like other children really. so grounding means staying in and not playing out!

which suits me as i really like my kids company. grounding doesnt work with mums who would rather get some peace ( which i really understand) but my kids are good company, and they dont sulk for too long as they would much rather talk to me about stuff that happened at school.

where we fall down is actually doing good stuff whilst tthe kids are grounded - like going to the pictures - so they get a good time - but its with us not their mates - perhaps thats not so bad.

but if i did the entertainment thing - it would be a good thing to withdraw.

Unicorn, if you have described the situation fully, my take on it is that you didn't follow through and that's why your dd is showing the defiance. You said stop, she said no, so you tidied the cushions for her. Mistake number 1. Then you said go to your room and she said no and instead of picking her up and putting her in her room, you left the room instead. She pushed some boundaries, which is normal for her age and you moved the boundaries back instead of holding firm. Next time around she will know that when you say no, you don't really mean it and when you say go to your room, you don't really mean it. Presumably this has happened before and she has learned from previous situations.
I think it's really really important not to threaten something that you are not prepared to carry through. Dh's ex didn't believe in spanking, but was forever threatening it. Her kids never listened to her. I threatened it and carried it out once early on with the same kids. I never had to threaten or carry it out again. They listened to me after that. That's not to say that you need to spank to discipline. It's just that you do have to stick to whatever punishment you choose to use.
And I also think that banning tv for an evening may not be an immediate enough punishment for some children. My two (2 and 4) are a little younger than yours, but really need something much more immediate like the naughty stair or their room than revoking priveleges.

Morning!

I have tried believe me. Picking up and putting into a room a 6 year who is kicking and wailing like a banshee doesn't engender good parenting feelings. Compliant, is not a word I would use in connection with dd, 'Challenging' (or, for, Custy's benefit 'bl**dy difficult')is.

Thinking about this, I reckon the lack of consistency comes from me and dh, what bothers me, doesn't bother him, so she gets to do what she likes with him - as long as she isn't annoying him too much( ie it wouldn't matter to him that she was trashing the sofa)

I think it is probably a parental problem, in that he doesn't support me much (we have had no end of problems with dd since she was born)and he would rather take the 'easiest'- non confrontational option.. ie let her do what she wants.

Dangerous grounds I think.

I'm in los angeles, so it's night time for me!
I don't think it really matters too much that you and your dh have different rules if they are just little things (like messy sofas). You just have to be super clear on what each of your rules are and what behavior YOU expect from your children when you are in charge. And work out a compromise when both you and your dh are around so that you decide who's in charge and whose rules are going to be followed and let the kids know.

My kids know perfectly well that mummy NEVER buys them sweeties, but if they beg daddy enough, he will always give in. They don't even bother asking me any more. But when we go out for family outings, I allow dh to buy them sweets as long as it isn't just before a meal.
I know it's painful putting a kicking, screaming child in her room, but I suspect that if you are quick and firm about doing it consistently as a consequence of misbehavior, you won't have to do very often. But you really do have to deal with it now, because it will only get worse.

God it's wearing, I hate blatant defiance too! I either say ok but this is what will happen - xyz will be taken away or sometimes I say ok but this is what will happen, I will impose another sanction or sometimes I say oh come on, please do it, I don't want to argue or sometimes I say see if I can beat you to the top of the stairs, sometimes I shrug and walk away. I know that sounds inconsistent but different things/days need different approaches. Ds is 7.5yo.

Just skimmed over the thread unicorn, agree with all who say you have to choose something she does care about, threaten calmly to take it away and definitely,definitely follow through. Make a big deal of it and she will remember that you mean what you say. And her 'I don't care' is just an act, I did it as a child too even when I cared desperately!

Unicorn: I have boys & a girl. DS1 (5yo) - quite stroppy, but less so as he gets older. DS1 used to be amazingly uncooperative but this last year we have had a transformation (fish oils!?). DD is a pushover, will have to teach her to stand up for herself at school. DS2 - very LOUD & already tantrumming (12 months), so suspect will be the stroppiest of the lot.

I might sometimes haul DS1 off to his room kicking & screaming, as other suggest, but DS1 goes mental about being physically manhandled, so would try to bribe/threat/shame instead, usually. I think Custy's experience shows that the discipline you establish at this age is often what sets the stage for enforcing good discipline when they become stroppy teens, too.

Maybe you & your DH need to sit down & decide on some hard & fast house rules, allowing for some compromises -- like maybe you can tolerate messy sofas if he reliably backs you up on something else. In an ideally airy fairy perfect parenting world you'd sit down with your DD, too, and explain the new no-nonsense house rules, too. And then enforce them strictly, no second chances, just right in there like a dragon ogre mummy.

Make sure your DH does the harsh disciplining too, sometimes, you don't want to always have to be the bad guy.

ps: www is so right about turning things into a game (eg., challenging to race up the stairs). Can defuse the whole situation when child is threatening total disobedience and both of you could lose your cool so easily. My DH is very good at this technique.

Have you tried Soupdragon's pasta jar thing? One of mine is in defiant mode at the mo (quite agree that it's infuriating) and after a wearing day of serial time outs (he got angrier and angrier, ruder and ruder and refused to back down and apologise) followed by banning his trip to the park and taking only his brother because I was mortified at the way he was speaking to me as we walked along the road() I have introduced the it. (Basically 5 pieces of pasta in the jar at start of the week. Each = 10p. 5 extra pieces of pasta outside the jar. Bad behaviour = 1) ask them to stop nicely 2) tell them to stop or I'll take a piece of pasta out 3) take a piece out. If they still don't stop do it again and so forth until jar empty. Extra good behaviour means piece of pasta in the jar. Count pasta pieces on Saturday and give dosh)

After two days I can genuinely report an instant change in his behaviour. I have only had to take one bit of pasta out of the jar and he accepted that without demur because he knew that a bad response would mean another piece out. He has also been trying to behave well in the hope that I will put a pasta piece in the jar if I spot extra fab behaviour. Worth a try?

Ta all,

Scummy, it maybe worth a go, but I have tried soooooo many techniques over the 6 years, I am losing heart.

I tried giving her a pound pocket money (she had to earn it, by simply tidying up her room at the weekend.)... guess what? she hasn't and isn't bothered about that either.

I think she has had too many things/toys thrust on her by people (relatives she doesn't see much, and possibly guilt things from me) that she doesn't really have any one thing that really matters.

So, I am getting more + more tempted to clear out her room and start from scratch... she can get her things back through good behaviour.

She has always been fickle with toys etc (flavour of the week, then cast aside)

BTW, she isn't a demon all the time, some of this could be a reaction to ds (who tends, generally, to do as he is told, and wants to try and 'please' us)

She is the classic case of 'difficult' child, who needs more love/attention than the 'easier' one.... but my god, is it hard sometimes!

Ds1 has started this now, he is 5.5. And it is really hard to know what to do... We have tried the 'naughty chair', have taken all his toys away (he had 100's so we have packed them for moving), keeping just a few out that he has to earn back with good behaviour! & we have been using a sticker chart for at least 3 months.

When he gets upset or angry he hits dh (his step-dad) and we can't stop this either, have tried holding his hands, but he kicks, have tried taking his favourite toys away one at a time each time he hits, have tried sending him to his room, but he won't stay there, and won't stay on the 'naughty chair' either.

It is very wearing, and doesn't do much for mine and Dh's relationship.

We only threaten stuff we will carry out, so we are not in the wrong there hopefully.

Personally I wouldn't try the money thing. It is bad enough bribing with toys! Also we only ever give pocket money for special tasks, like washing the car, or gardening etc.

Every household chores like tidying their rooms, and helping with the washing is all part of being in a family so these things should be done anyway to help. Never give money for normal chores...

Unicorn, maybe this is complete nonsense since I have no experience with a 6 year old... but what if you just tell her how much you love her and how disapointed you are with her bad behaviour and walk away? She might be misbehaving to get your attention? In this case, if instead of getting your attention she just get your cold shoulders, misbehaving might be less enticing? I don't think this works for all types of misbehaviours, but for the ones that she knows she is not supposed to do, and seem to be doing just to annoy you.

Glad I'm not alone!

Lua, that may be the way forward...but believe me it is v. hard to remain 'loving' in the face of an adversarial,angry child.

I am not by nature a calm person wish I was... it's like fighting fire with fire.

I guess I need to get a grip/take control, and not let her 'get' to me...

I had this this morning with a 5 year old. I ask ds to put on his school jumper because he didn;'t wanna wear it, and i said he had to and if he gets hot later he can always take it off. It took about 10 mins to get him to do it with one smack, threatened to take his toys away everything and the little bugger laughed at me,,, was very to say the least. He is sooo stubborn, but what can you do???

IMHO I would try the naughty step even with a 6 year old for 6 mins or a really boring room not with toys or books in

I always think about that if we didn't get it sorted when under 10 what would we do when over 10 and is much harder to lift up and put where you want.

My sister was always saying a threat to my nephews and never carrying it out and so they never took any notice of what she said

Get you DH to watch "little angels" with you and he may see what you are trying to say

With my ds, I simply explained that if he asked for anything I'd say no
It worked pretty quickly as I applied it to everything he expected me to do for him
Now we use Top Gear on Sunday nights as his bartering/punishment, that said he rarely trangresses, he is 11 and quite a sweety pie!