toddler and baby, please help, i'm getting it all wrong

[Arkala]

Have got dd 2.2 and 11wk old ds. dd "loves" ds but is not great at sticking to gentle stroking etc, rather than poking, hitting when I'm not looking and so on.

I know this is probably totally normal but I felt very sad this morning when dropping dd at childminders as I overheard her saying to another of the mindees who was looking at ds in the carseat "leave him alone" in a horrible voice which is clearly what she has picked up on me saying to her.

So, basically what I think I am asking for is tips on how to encourage dd to be gentle with ds, and ways to handle it when she's not. I'm not asking for miracles but would just like to feel like I'm not constantly telling off dd when she tries to interact with ds.

NB: none of the above is helped by severe snow induced cabin fever over the last few weeks!

No advice for you, but want to watch this as I think I'll need the same advice when DC2 is born in a few months... hope someone comes along to help you

This is all normal, just to reassure you.

I would physically remove your DD's hand every time she hurts your DS and say something firm and positive like 'gentle touches only', then move on quickly, so she isnt getting loads of attention for negative things. Save the big fuss for when she is nice to him - go over board with praise and say 'you are such a good big sister' etc.

It will take time. My youngest is 14 months old and her big brother is only just starting to be nice to her now .

Really Mrs Mattie, 14 months? I might have gone totally mad by then!

I do try and really praise her when she is being gentle or even just semi-gentle (poor ds) and give her the benefit of the doubt when I think she is actually being a bit mean to him to get a reaction.

I just find it much harder to not over react when she is outright rough with him, especially as I do think she does WANT to be gentle with him, it's almost as if she can't help herself.

Dorothea congrats on number 2 on the way!

I'min a similar position - DD is 2.6 and DS is 13 wks. When they are both together with just me, I tend to have DS in a sling/ carry on one very tired arm so always an arm free for DD. I also tend not to intervene when DS and DD are playing unless DS is crying (DD usually fetches me then anyway) and I have to very cartefully hold back the mummy tiger when I think she's getting a bit ahem enthusiastic.

The other thing is that DS really loves watching DD and has just started cooing so we really really big that up - 'look DD, DS thinks you're so wonderful and big and clever, he really wishes he could do that' etc so she is starting to get more involved with him rather than something takinmg away my attention iyswim.

sling sounds like a great idea chocrabbit. I think I optimistically leave ds in his bouncy chair so that I can try and get on with something for 5 mins but it always seems to backfire. plus don't know why I bother when I have them both on my own!

So, if you think dd is about to be "enthusiastic" do you say something in advance or just wait while hovering to see if it pans out?

I hate hearing myself being so negative when they interact, am deffo going to try some "look at ds looking at clever you" type stuff, great plan, thanks.

Awwww I have a 17 month gap between my two kids and my eldest has tried to stamp on the babies head when I left the room and all sorts of other things

It's very difficult dealing with jealousy and my eldest when playing with her dolls imitates my voice and pretends one of the dolls is her and one is mummy and does a shoutey voice on me telling her off. It makes me feel bad too, as I think is that all she thinks of me?

Ideas to try that I've read about and also used:

Buy a present and give it to the child "from the baby"
Make them feel involved and encourage them to have a special role as the big brother/ sister.
Take photos of them holding baby, it can make them feel grown up.
Or help them hold baby, making sure you have an arm round them in case they decide to get up.
Also ask them to do little errands for you by fetching nappies and praise them lots.
They can also help you get them dressed and help get things ready for a feed and they love being helpful especially if praised etc.
Lots of reassurance, cuddles, try and say lots of positive things to toddler so they feel loved and secure as well.

These definitely help, of course the usual encouraging to stroke and kiss etc with the baby and praising them when they get it right is good. But you do that already.

The health visitor said to me that I should the leave room from time to time and walk back in and even if they were just looking at the baby to praise them and say "well done for looking after your baby brother". For discipline when it got really out of hand the HV said that it was important not to react (as my toddler was enjoying that) and to just calmly say "you mustn't hurt your brother" and then calmly escort them to room (I didn't have any steps at mine) and then leave them for a while and then just let them out again. The HV said there was no point in doing the whole "I punished you as you hurt your brother, go and say sorry etc." The HV just said if you act very bored and calm and don't react at all about it, apart from placing in their room, it won't be long before they get bored of the game and it stops. But she did say also, that if they cry when you do the time out, it's most effective if you leave them until they stop crying. It doesn't work as well if you let them out before the crying stops.

This is only my health visitor though, so this is her opinion, but it worked for me.

You'll get loads more tips though. Try not to let it get you down, can your other half look after the baby sometimes, so you can do special things with your older child?

Hi Arkala. I hover relentlessly and try not to leave them in a room together unless absolutely within earshot for no more than a minute. I try very hard not to say anything as it is usually ' be careful with DS please DD' 'I being it mummy' said in a very aggrieved tone followed by an accident...

I'm told it gets easier!

oh such a relief to know others have the same problem!

teaandcakesplease thanks for all those ideas, interesting what the hv said about not bothering with the apology stuff, i haven't to date done any time out with dd but do make her apologise (normally after I've told her off / shouted) by which time she is crying and I feel terrible about my handling of the whole situation.

when dd and i have 1:1 time (i.e. when ds is sleeping) i do try and be super interactive and play jigsaws or whatever she is doing rather than use the opportunity to do some quick jobs, dh and I were also thinking the same about me going out alone with dd just so she gets some special time without ds.

i think my prob is that the theory sounds easy, the carrying it out in reality is what I find hard!

chocrabbit will make my belated new year resolution to try and hover without speaking unless necessary! so hard isn't it!

no words of wisdom but I feel this was us when ds was born and dd has reccently calmed down in behaviour to ds. It took a while and I felt absurdly overprotective to ds which prob fuelled the whole thing, frequently overreacted and often didn't give dd the best time even when ds asleep cos I was just too exhausted. But now they often play together, I feel safe briefly leaving them together in a room and I think the lot of us have survived! This is a year on - and things gradually improved. I think ds is still sometimes a "test your strength machine" for dd but i am absolutely convinced they love each other and we are generally very happy.

My dd was 2.2 when ds was born in June of this year. This is absolutely normal behaviour which WILL get better. I found it really stressful but a few things that helped were what chocolate said about the sling, hovering and only intervening when someone is obviously getting hurt or crying (he actually didn't seem to mind her lying on him, tbh, it was me that did), and also overdoing the praise. The most useful thing that I read was in Penelope Leach's 'Baby and Child' which was to focus on getting the older child to believe that the little one likes them as they will naturally start to like them in return, so lots of 'oh, you're his favourite', 'he's smiling just for you' etc. I also used to make a point of saying 'Sorry ds, I'm just going to get xxx for dd then I'll feed you' even if he was asleep so that she could hear me putting her needs first, iyswim. I also used to remind him to be gentle with her, so that it wasn't just her that was being told how to behave. I found that ignoring her and making a big fuss of him if she did hit or poke him along the lines of 'poor ds, dd knows how to be gentle and kind and she forgets' dramatically reduced the number of incidents. Also, keeping him out of her reach whenever possible for those early months! I can appreciate that it must be difficult when cooped up, as getting out of the house all day was one of our main coping mechanisms.
It gets easier when the younger one gets more robust and interactive, so you're on your way. 7 months down the line, my two are the best of friends and she's absolutely great with him (most of the time!)

thanks littlebylittle and rosebud, it is so reassuring to know that it is normal and more importantly thanks for giving me hope that it does get better. Having an "on tap" friend / playmate was one of the things I was most looking forward to about having 2 dc so bring on that stage.

I will definitely try the tips about making ds wait for dd to be helped as it does always seem to be one way at the moment.

And yes, getting out of the house over the last two days has made a HUGE difference, if not to the actual behaviour but to my sanity!

thanks to everyone for great advice.