UP parents- how do you deal with things that have to be done immediately?

[thisisyesterday]

Am still having problems with ds1 (you may, or may not remember previous thread re his behaviour).
anyway, a big sticking point for us is times when he really needs to do what i've asked and I don't have time to explain etc etc, it needs to be done NOW.

ie, in hugely busy shopping centre the other day. we walk through the automatic doors, followed by many other people.
ds1 decided he wanted to take his coat off so just stopped and started undoing it. I said to him "ds1, we can't stop here, we're blockign the way, come over here and do that"
he refused.
people were literally walking into us and i had to grab his arm and drag him away- cue massive temper tantrum.

i know the theory is that if we respect them and do all the "right" stuff that they will respect us and do what they're asked on the occasions when we really need it- but he doesn't!

it's things like this that I can't warn him about because I have no idea they're about to happen.
when i can't stop and discuss with him whether there are other ways of doing it, or whether it's right or wrong.
where it just needs doing my way straight away.

am struggling big time with this, so any ideas/experience would be great

I think that you have to accept that there are some things that are non negotiable and not open to discussion.
You need the right body language and tone of voice so that he knows you mean it and expect him to follow.
I would stick to the positive and make it a game-e.g. ' Josh-we need to take 6 big steps before you take it off-1 (even bigger) 2 steps' etc. Then, when he takes it off, get him to look at all the people coming through the door and explain why he had to move-or ask him why he thinks he had to move.
You don't say how old he is but if he is little I would pick him up and pretend he is flying and move him and then explain.

he's almost 5 and everything is a bloody battle these days.

part of the problem is that he has inherited my stubborn-ness. so if he decides that's where he'll take his coat off then by heck that's where he'll take it off!

at the time he was pushing his baby in a pushchair, and I also had his brothers in the double buggy, so the only way I could get him out of the way was to drag him, which he (quite rightly) protested about! but i didn't have much choice.

Maybe a little advance warning if you're going to be in a situation where he must keep going, like if you're catching a train, going through automatic doors, crossing the street -- you could warn him this event is coming up and tell him what the expectation is going to be, i.e. he will hold your hand and you will all walk together and not stop for any reason. Then praise him for any compliance. You could try foresee any safety problems that might conceivably arise along your way for any reason you can imagine, and give a pep talk beforehand, then a reminder as you approach the place. Takes a bit of anticipating, though, and makes very hard work of a simple little outing. I had one who liked to take her shoes off in random places. She would crouch right down and people would literally walk on her.

I'm sorry it's probably not very UP but I would just pick him up and talk about it later.

Think mother lion

I don't think leaing a child where they are going to be knocked over or trodden on is very, well, protective

But I am always interested to find out about UP because it really appeals to me.

I think you can protect and respect. For instance yelling 'get out of the bl*dy way ds nOW!' would not be very respectful, but swiftly lifting him up out of the way then explaining why is OK imo.

I think if I see my child as not meaning to be difficult, and try and understand his pov, I am respecting him. iyswim

sorry to dim, but what is UP?

I can see that you had your hands full and my suggestions weren't too helpful!
If you have more than one DC you have to take into account the common good. It is where UP falls down, if the younger siblings have different ideas you can get totally exhausted by all the discussion, and the outcome for one won't be the outcome another wants. Anticipating first is a good idea, but impossible at times.
I would explain that there are times that if you tell him what to do there will be a good reason and sometimes you might have to explain afterwards. If he was about to get run into by a bike you would have to move him sharpish and tell him why afterwards. The door was similar thing. I would still make it a game, hasten your speed with the pushchair and say 'quick-through the door'-he will be so surprised that he will have done it before he has time to argue! Then tell him he can take his coat off and explain why he needed to move.

Unconditional parenting, MamaG. Not using rewards and punishments. Alfie Kohn is the one to read. It is fairly common sense but unfortunately a lot of people use it without understanding it and allow their DCs to rule the roost! It is hard work, done properly.It is like everything-works best if you adapt it to your personality and the personality of your DCs.

DD is only 2.7 so fortunately I can pick her up and 'fly' her to somewhere else. But if I have my hands full I make it some sort of game or engage her attention and she has moved before you know it ie "oh gosh all these people coming up behind you like a herd of wildebeest and you've only got seconds to get out of the way. Quick run dd and hide behind this shop sign mother elephant." And yes, I know this makes me sound like a wnaky loon but it works about 90% of the time. Ask me again in a couple of years when dd also believes I'm a wnaky loon.

really interested in UP. but just wondering, if you cant use reward and punishment, then how do you react when your dc are being rude, disrespectful, hitting siblings etc..? please answer as this is killing me!

I think it's quite difficult to suddenly adopt UP tactic is they're not something you're using already Rochel as it's a fairly major shift in attitude/approach.

Basically, and I'm no expert (I parent to instinct not to 'rule'), if my dd was being physically violent or verbally abusive I would tackle two issues in tandem. Firstly, acknowledging why my child was behaving that way in the first place. I don't think that children are inherently 'naughty' but curious, confused, frustrated, overwhelmed, finding their way, learning the way of the world etc and if they were expressing anger or sadness I'd look at why, talk to them about why and look at ways of addressing that. Secondly, I'd endeavour- and this is something you do, not just in that moment where the anger and violence is happening but something that's part of everyday life- to discuss and reason with dd about other people's feelings, what might be appropriate ways to behave towards others, how we might express ourselves in positive ways and how it's okay to feel cross and scared but there are the ways in which to confront and express it without making other people sad or hurting them.

I come at this theoretically because dd as I said is only 2.7 so is not physically violent and has thus far never been rude about anything other than why exactly a rational human being would want to eat a 'yucky, slimy tomato out of grandad's garden'.

Crikey, I can't type at all today.

quite difficult to suddenly adopt UP tactics if they're not something you're using already.

thanks GF, sounds like a great approach, and i definitley do talk to them about their feelings etc, but what do i do in the moent, as he is insulting his little sister or hitting her?

sorry, moMent. cant type either...

This is where I think that some things are non negotiable-you are not rude or violent towards others and so you stop it and save the discussions for afterwards-when all have calmed down.

The thing is that with UP it doesn't mean you don't ever do anything to/with the child that might be unpleasant (e.g. dragging them out of the way by the arm, or separating them from their sibling who they are fighting with) - it just means you don't make anything unpleasant unnecessarily to "teach them". So as MarrianeDreams says, not getting frustrated and snapping "Get out of the bloody way!" and yanking them hard by the arm in an annoyed way, but asking/telling them once nicely to move over here, and if they ignore it then just doing it, and explaining later (with an apology if you did lose your temper or have to be rougher than you would like ie dragging by arm if you had no free hands etc)

You can always use "Say, remind, make it happen" which I like as it's not punishment-based, it's just the idea that you only ever give an instruction once (with a short one-word reminder + name afterwards unless it's a situation which needs immediate action) and then you make whatever it is you asked happen, but not in a "Right that's it, I'm doing it and you won't like it the way I do it" kind of way, just doing it for them as you would if they were too young to do it themselves. The idea is they get the message that what you say happens - because sometimes it is necessary to just take charge, and you can always discuss it with them later if they are old enough to understand.

Oh and if they have a tantrum when you move don't try and rationalise it or explain as that tends to make tantrums worse (according to How To Talk... I must admit my DS is younger and distraction still works on tantrums so this is all theory) but instead try giving words to the feelings. So instead of "I'm sorry DS, but we had to move, we were blocking people's way and they couldn't get past. You can take your coat off over here, there is much more room." saying something like "You are feeling angry/annoyed/frustrated that I moved you while you were trying to take your coat off"

I don't know if it works or not but it could be worth a try?

At it's worst it is like a thread on here a while ago where a father in a paddling pool was asking his 2 year old to think whether it was a good idea to throw the stone he was holding! The 2 yr old thought it was a good idea and threw it, hitting a DC on the head. That is a clear time to say, with authority, 'give that stone to me NOW'-once the stone is out of his hand you can have the discussion.

ys, i realise there are times when I have to make him do what I need him to do, hence the thread!

i think the say, remind, make it happen approach is possibly the way to go with him.

I tend to just stand/sit near him while he is tantrumming and not say anything, because if I talk to him at all he will just scream and spit. (we think he has sensory issues, being looked at by school)

I guess I just need a definite tactic for what i'm going to do in those situations where I really need him to comply, and NOW!
I suppose with time he will learn that when I say now, it means now, but perhaps right now he is still a little bit young? I don't know.

it's really good to get other people's perspectives and ideas on this though

in fact, i think what iwas looking for was a way to get him to do what needs doing without having to physically move him.
but thinking about it, and reading responses i do wonder if he just is too young still

He is very little - I would just remove or distract.

hi, have just written a reply and lost it - those pesky kids, just quickly before they attack me again, I agree with other posters, he's too little tounderstand, you have to act in this situation and explain later.

Does he like the fishtank?

I agree that you can't expect a child that age to understand what is going on quickly enough and that you just have to physically move them and then deal with their reaction to that in a respectful and understanding way.

It is one of those learning by experience things. Next time you go to a crowded shopping you'll remember to warn your son in advance that it's not safe for him to stop in busy places.

baskingseals- yes he loves the fishtank! although, we have yet to actually get any fish in yet, but they love just staring into it and watching the plants sway lol