sowing the seeds of anorexia

[HairyToe]

Bit long sorry - looking for some advice from anyone who knows.

I just happened to read some stuff about anorexia nervosa in relation to Karen Carpenter:

"Hers was the "good girl's" disease--a compulsive urge to control weight, primarily among female hyperachievers, that leads to such extremes as self-induced vomiting and taking huge doses of laxatives"

My blood ran cold to be honest. I'm not trying to be dramatic but I can;t help worrying about my 6 year old in the future - and the worse thing is I think its all my (or rather our - DH is just as bad as me) fault.

She's not a good eater and has always been a bit fussy. It was quite bad in the past and despite trying hard to do the right thing and not make an issue of it I'm only human and have got angry and probably over emotional around food with her. Its hard to type but she does see eating or not eating as being good or naughty, or pleasing or not pleasing me.

In addition she is essentially a 'good' girl and places a lot of stock by this. She doesn;t like making me 'cross'. She can be quite hard on herself and is very bright but can get upset if she doesn;t do things perfectly although this has eased recently.

I am aware of DH and I sometimes expecting too much of her (in her behaviour etc. not in schoolwork or anyhtthng like that - we're really laid back about that). I'm sure I;m not dratically different to most other Mums but I do tend to expect her (as the eldest of three) to be my helper, the grown up one who helps look after the others and is expected to behave better.

I'm waffling now. How do I change? Have I damaged her irreperably? How do I turn things around?

Sorry if this sounds a bit chaotic

I am by no means an expert, but eating disorders is something I have given a lot of thought to as we have had an awful lot of problems getting our daughter to eat (we got a lot of professional help with this), and there are plenty of people in our family who have 'issues' with food.

I think what really encourages eating disorders is over analysing what people eat, how much they eat, and how overweight they are. Telling children that they eat too much, or too little, or the wrong kind of things, or that certain foods are treats and need to be restricted all seems like a bad idea to me. With my daughter we got used to not reacting if she didn't eat, and just clearing away uneaten food, but also not praising her for eating lots. We don't have healthy food and unhealthy food, she has just got used to what we eat at different times of day.

I know there are a lot of things that can trigger eating disorders but I think there is a lot you can do to help discourage them.

I think the best advise is not to make an issue of it, then hopefully she won't.

Thanks for your response.

Yes we have tried to not make an issue of the not eating with some success but unfortunately after a while we slip up. Its disappointing and frustrating when you've spent ages cooking something you think she loves only to be told it isn't quite right. I know what I'm supposed to do. Just can;t seem to keep it up all the time. Especially days when I;m very tired.

I know how you feel, I hate it when I have cooked a meal with her in mind and she finds a complaint about it. My 2 tips are:

1. Limit the amount of cooking you do expecially for her, within reason she should just eat whatever you have decided to cook. This will help you feel less stressed out, and this in turn will have a positive effect on her.

2. Don't even acknowledge or react to any complaints about the food you have given her. The meal is whatever you have put on the plate and she can either eat it or not. We use meal times as an opportunity to talk about what we have been doing during the day, and she either eats or doesn't while we talk about it. We try not to talk about the food itself.

I do sympathise, I know it can be hard sometimes.

There are lots of very messed up eating and food issues in my family, and it's something I definitely don't want my kids involved in. I'm sure you've thought of this, but what about not spending ages cooking something - you'll both have less emotional energy invested in it. My dd is younger than yours but tbh I tend to give her simple dishes that I fairly sure she'll eat (usually that I've cooked for all of us) so that it really isn't a big deal if she eats or not. Do you know exactly what bothers you about her not eating well? I give my dd a multi-vit to prevent my mind wandering in that direction. It sounds like you're really worrying about it - I don't know what professional help might be available for this? GP? Dietician? Psychologist? It doesn't sound like you've 'damaged' her, but it does sound like you need some support.

I find this very interesting as I come from a family where food was a reward. I developed anorexia and then bulimia and even now have food ishoos. I am not actually sure what would have made a difference. But there are lots of things that contributed to my eating problems and most of them were to do with my bitch of a mother. I think my way of dealing with her was food, in the way some people may self harm, drink too much whatever. Food became my way of coping and I guess the way I was brought up around food made it make sence to me to use food (although it wasn't a thought out process at all, I just mean when I analise it now I se that) I blame my eating problems on her and her abuse, not on the way I was brouht up with food. But I do think that trying to make food as much of a non issue as possible is a good thing.

Not sure if all that makes sence!

Thanks for all your answers. Rosebud I do tend to cook simple food that I know she will eat most of the time. Tbh most of the time I manage to not let the whole thing become an 'issue' although some chatting along the lines of "Can I finish yet" followed by " Can you just eat up some vegetables they're really good for you" still inevitably happens. I;m just not happy to let her just eat one part of the meal and leave the broccoli and carrots - I know I;m not supposed to say anything.

I'm also worried about the pressure I;ve been putting on her to behave well. But then shouldn;t I be strongly encouraging good behaviour? Isn't that my job? I'm probably too tired and emotional right now to be trying to think through this (knackered, coping with 5 month old still waking several times a night). But I want her to be good so should I be glad that she tries hard to be good and gets upset if she thinks she isn;t being good (ie I;ve done my job well) or does it indicate I'm too hard on her?

Can;t manage to explain myself very well. Thats the only problem with MN - the need to be lucid and intellignent in print in order to discuss anything.

Tried calling my Mum earlier to talk it through but ended up in tears. Didn;t go well.

Sorry giraffes cross posted - in what way was your mother a bitch - if you don;t mind me asking. Obviously I'm analysing my own mothering here. I love my DD to distaction and I know she knows that - I think we have fun together and like each other - I don;t think I;m horrible to her just maybe a bit hard on her

She was physically and emotionally abusive - she had anger issues and was quite scary but I was desperate to please her. Never once said I love you/hugged us etc. Very emotionally cold. Never proud, pleased for us. If we got 19/20 in a test it was always "why wasn't it 20?" If we got 20 it was always "why can't you get 20 in x subject?"

A real cow. I havent spoke to her in years. The fact you are worrying about this now implies to me that you and she are poles apart

sorry giraffes for your terrible experience - i must sound really self obsessed. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

And thanks everyone for your advice. Really need to go to bed now. Will think on this again in morning with the benefit of some sleep (DC3 permitting).

I've not got a lot to add apart from involving her in the cooking. My dd has a shocking appetite and can (and has) gone for a couple of days without eating , although not for a couple of years. I find her more receptive to food if she has had a hand in preparing it. She seems to think that I won't be sneaking veg in without her noticing (ah but you didn't see me blitz some veg into a puree to add to the bolognaise sauce did you clever clogs). My dd's food issues do tend to centre around the toxic qualities of vegetables and how best to avoid them.

I should add, she isn't in the slightest bothered about being a 'good girl', she is a little monkey and does seem to have anger issues.

I would say, as someone who has major food issues and would probably have major eating disorders if I hadn't learned to ignore my mother at a very young age, that you need to relax the standards for all of you.

Sometimes she'll eat, sometimes she won't. Sometimes you'll be fine with that, sometimes you'll get upset.

No one is perfect. Stop expecting yourself to be the perfect mother and I'd bet she'd begin to stop trying to be the perfect daughter.

Some really good advice here. What has really taught me how to avoid eating issues in our family is watching dp's family as they are the ones that have real problems. My concern is that their conversations about food are going to have an effect on my kids. I have a real problem keeping them away from these conversations when we visit them. I can ask them to stop when they are at our house but can't really tell them what to do when we are at their house. Its really obsesive (sp) and spoils every meal. If its a meal where the food is in the middle of the table and people just help themselves we have to spend the whole meal talking about who has got the most protein and is therefore healthy and who has been unhealthy and got lots of carbohydrate. What convinces me that this is a border line eating disorder though is that I have realised that the problem only occurs when everyone has sat at the table for a meal. In between meals they stuff their faces with junk and think no one is looking. Sorry, I'm rambling now, its a bit of a pet subject of mine.

You mentioned her not eating the vegetables. I would say that the best thing to do is continue to put them on the plate as you obviously want her to eat them, but not spend too much time trying to get her to eat them. Reminding her that they are they might encourage her to eat them, but making threats like you can't leave the table until they are eaten will just make her dread meal times like you won't believe (my parents tried making me stay at the table until I had finished and I can promise you it created more problems than it solved). I know this means putting food on a plate knowing full well it will go in the bin later but I just view this as one of the joys of parenthood.

Someone mentioned food as a reward as well. This is a seriously bad idea. We have sweets in our house sometimes, but they are bought along with all the other food for the week. I hate it when relatives take our daughter to the shop especially to buy her a packet of sweets as a treat. I really don't think this gives a good message to kids. There isn't a lot I can do about it though.

Giraffes, my Mum is just like yours! Like you say, she has never once said she loved me, but she has told me how useless I am plenty of times. I don't think I could bring myself to share some of the things she has said and done to me, but somehow I don't have the guts to just cut contact with her. I just keep her at a distance and when we do see them it is for the benefit of my kids more than anything.

I was like your dd some days I would not eat at all and my mum had to have school uniforms made to fit me as I was to small. My mum like you would sometimes lose it over food However when I hit puberty I found a love of sports and being physically strong.

Between the age of 11 and 13 I went from 4 stone to 9 stone and have stayed there since I am a size 8 so small but I am very muscular and I never diet only exercise so I second what others say don't make it about looks make it about fitness and try no peak an interest in sports and she should start having more of a healthy appetite if she takes part in alot of sports.

I am up in the night with my 8 month old still and I think you do lose perspective when you are this tired. Give yourself a break. I'm also worried about my DD's eating and I am getting lax because I'm so damned tired. Let it go until your baby starts sleeping and you are aiming for perfection.

You are labelling her as not a good eater - it does become a self fulfilling prophecy. Have you read how to listen to kids so kids will listen book.

I really wouldn't worry too much. I think you should definitely relax about pushing her to eat but I don't think you need to feel so guilty. Chances are she will never suffer from this disorder.

My mum spent years bribing me to diet, locking the fridge, telling me off for eating etc etc. She has always had issues with food and weight herself which she seemed to project onto me. I think it is very important to practise what you preach so don't obsess over your own weight and eat healthily and exercise so your daughter can pick up good habits.

If you think you have given her the idea that eating pleases you and you want to change that then you can. She is only young. Don't be so hard on yourself. After everything my mum did I am not anorexic or bulimic. I am a healthy weight but that is because in my twenties my mum suddenly stopped hassling and just let me be. It took the emotions out of food for me and I lost 4 stone last year (baby weight). Don't get me wrong I still go on diets every now and then and sometimes get peed off about the size of my thighs - but I am not obssessive, am just like eveyrone else really.

What are her "anger issues"? Maybe she's just being 6 and hasn't learnt to control her emotions yet .... and maybe she is picking up on anger from you about the food - and no, I am not being saintly here. I can totally empathise with you I get angry wtih my kids too and show it and it is a lousy example for them. So I need to learn how to deal with my anger and I can show the how to manage theirs.

As for food, we were "clear your plate, there are starving children" kids when I was growing up and I have battled with food as a reward/comfort ever since. I won't allow my kids to wifully waste food but I will accept that some days they are not so hungry. Look, I know everyone is always banging on about books on here and frankly, we'd all have the British Library in our houses if we got every book recommended but here's a synopsis of My Child Won't Eat written by a paediatrician - if they are otherwise healthy, then leave them be. Healthy kids don't starve themselves. Keep offering small portions of reasonably healthy food and they will eat. I have drastically reduced my kids portion sizes and they now ask for seconds if they are hungry and not if they are not. Their tummies really are small compared to ours.

I had anorexia as a teenager which stopped completely when I left home (no coincidence). I would say that mine was about the following which are of course interlinked:

• self esteem - my mum always praised my achievements not me as a person (whereas she described my sister as having a lovely nature).

• A desperate need to please my mum - the good girl thing. It was totally unimaginable to leave any food.

• A great deal of importance being placed on being slim (and appearance in general)

• Control- we were never allowed to choose what to eat, how to eat.

As I said as soon as I left home for university, became my own self, not just one of twins, met a wonderful man who told me that I was lovely, it totally stopped - and joyfully has never returned.

So my advice to you is to develop dd's self esteem and openly admire curvy women's figures, reassure your dd you love her and think she is wonderful - how she looks and personality traits- not achievements.

Letting her help with choosing what to eat and cooking is a great idea.
Don't beat yourself up. I actually think the finishing your dinner thing was the least influential thing in creating my illness.

Just got back to this and really touched at how many of you have obviously taken time and thought in replying to me. I'll re-read all your answers and give them sime thought. Had a better nights sleep last night and feeling more human and able to put things in perspective.

Thanks again