Parents who speak the minority language to dc - do you switch to the majority language at the park / in front of your dcs' friends?

[pispirispis]

Hello all,

I was wondering, those of you who speak to your dc in your own native language in a country where a different language is spoken, do you switch to the majority language when speaking to your dcs in front of their friends/at the park?

I'm a native English speaking mum in Spain. I have a 17 month old dd and I speak to her in English. Dp speaks to her in Spanish and only knows very basic English. Dp and I speak Spanish to each other. Dd is with me all day and also spends quite a bit of time with English speaking family and friends, so at the moment English is very much the dominant language. I'm aware this will change when she goes to nursery at 3 and also life outside the front door is all in Spanish.

The problem is, when I talk to dd at the park the other children (and parents) can't understand, and I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do... I spend an awful lot of time saying "Say hello/bye bye to the little girl/boy" and so on, which her little playmates don't understand, (although the parents often do )whereas if I said ¡Dile hola/adiós a la nena/al nene! everyone would understand. Plus maybe it's a good idea for dd to learn hola/adiós to interact with the other toddlers. And as she gets older we'll need more than just hola/adiós... In fact she's already making an attempt to say "hola" (oooaa!) but not hello, which surprised me, but then I realised she must hear me say it 10 times a day!

And then there's all the talking you do to your toddler at the park for politeness' sake, like, "No darling, that's not your trike, look, your car is over here" and "Let the little girl past so she can go down the slide" that is as much for the benefit of the other child/parents as for your dc. Wouldn't it be better to say all that in the language the people in the park can understand?

And then what about when she is at school and has friends home for tea? What language should I speak to her in then?? I had planned on English but now I'm not so sure...

Since dd was born I have been very careful to make it clear that daddy speaks Spanish and mummy speaks English. I don't want to confuse dd or send out the message later on that it's ok for her to speak to me in Spanish. In fact I had decided I wasn't going to speak any Spanish at all to dd under any circumstances, to "defend" her English, but now I'm not sure about this at all! Any advice from those of you in a similar situation?

No, I have the opposite problem. My DS overcompensates in his majority lang. and rolls the Italian "r". He calls his sister "Rrrrrrebecca".

Feierabend (I love your nickname!), I have noticed that. In my experience that comes from hearing other people speak the minority language who are not native speakers. Lots of my dcs' friends who have one parent of each nationality speak English with a French accent. It is the reason I never speak to my dcs in French - I don't want them to pick up my bad habits. Much better to learn from a native speaker.
MIFLAW, I know what you mean about it feeling wrong to speak to your dc in another language. I find it impossible to speak to my dcs in anything other than English - even in a situation where everyone (including me) is speaking French - I just can't do it!

I don't think my DCs have a French accent when speaking English but they definitely don't sound like the English children we know. They sound much more adult (as far as this is possible saying 'poo poo face' in a high pitched voice ' and I think this is because they usually converse in English with adults rather than with peers.

Have come to this thread a bit late (I'm a Scot married to a Frenchman, and living in France).

OSOTC, DS1 is 4.6 and he too speaks English differently to native speakers. I thought it was because he sounded artificial, until a friend pointed out that it is because he sounds exactly like me. I am by far his main source of English, other than DVDs and occasional visits to/from GPs, and as a result he sounds a bit like a parent and a bit like an English teacher, because that is what I am!

I speak English to DS1 in front of others, unless I am addressing him and his friends together. Most people here are very positive about it (except my MIL, but she is just jealous as she can't understand us). I suspect, sadly, that were we to be speaking Arabic together, they would be less positive. English is definitely seen as a useful tool to have.

I heard a French mum at our school (in UK) picking up her daughters of about 5 and 7 yesterday. She speaks excellent English and her children speak English like native speakers. I think they have lived here all their lives, though I don't know the family well. She spoke to them in French and they replied in English. It did make me wonder whether they would have replied in French at home.

Yes Acanthus we have those bizarre conversations as well - I ask DD1 something in German and she'll reply in English, and so on.

LOL at 'poo poo face' said in an adult way!

And thanks Lilian

I haven´t read the whole thread but I am also in spain with spanish/catalan dh though his english is really pretty fluent these days (when we met he couldn´t speak a word so i still find myself surprised by this!). My ds is 2.5, understands just about everything we say to him in english, catalan or castellano. Bearing in mind we speak to his age level, I´m not quoting classical literature or anything

I slip into spanish more than I thought I would when I was adamant I should always speak english under all circumstances etc etc blah blah. The reality for me is that in the park I will speak to ds in spanish, for example, to say "now come on ds don´t just lie there get up the steps this little boy is waiting for you". Because what I am saying is for the benefit of both speakers so i speak in the language they both understand. It wouldn´t even occur to me to say it once to him and then translate for the boy´s benefit. It would feel very unnatural and forced. When I am with the ILs I will occasionally slip into a bit of spanish but nothing prolonged, maybe just a comment. But having said that I can sometimes absentmindedly aim a spanish comment at an english speaker when i am confuddled so afaic its just another one of those glitches that happens for me when speaking two languages

I went to see a film (in spanish) with an english friend the other night (who also speaks spanish) and we kept turning to each other and making comments about the film in spanish. Each time it made me go (mentally) - errr- that was weird, don´t do that (!) but it just happened, it was the flow of the ´conversation´ from the film.

So I am with Cory,when alone with ds it is the only language and all the stories I read are in english, dvds are in english, cartoons on the tv i switch to original version english if possible. He speaks to my parents on skype and when he sees them (not too infrequently) in english and my friends. I do make an effort that these slips be kept to a minimum but I don´t overplay them either. So far for being so young i think ds has a great grasp of what mummy says vs what papa says. Today they came in from the park and dh said they had an ice cream. I said "oh how lovely, did you say thank you to papa?" he turned to dh and said "gracies papa"

And we are lucky that the part of spain we live in has a strong english prescence (though still very minority) so it is around. And there are a lot of kids from english or mixed language houses. I know plenty of adults and children (over 8) who speak english as a native speaker who grew up here with 1 spanish 1 english parent. i do know 1 child who speaks with a strong spanish accent at 5 which is weird because she lives with her english speaking mum (parents are separated) it sounds very cute and very very strange!

Lot of interesting points of view on here and I am still at the beginning of my bilingual career ...

I think, for me, the question resolves itself by thinking, what would I do if we went on holiday to (say) Turkey? I don't speak a word of Turkish. If I was to take my daughter to a palyground, any other children (and their parents) would just have to judge my intentions from my body language and tone of voice. And I'm sure they'd be fine with that, if I'm honest.

I don't think it is comparable to being on holiday in a country where you don't speak the language.

To me that is the whole point MIFLAW. I don't want my dcs to perceive me (the minority speaker) as some sort of holidaying outsider in our community.

Partly because I don't want them to associate speaking Swedish with not being part of things.

As the SAHM when they were younger, I saw it as part of my responsibilities to socialise them into the community, particularly as it is quite a closely knit one and I am appreciative of that. I didn't want them to feel that their family lives on the outskirts of it.

Again I agree with Cory, I am not on holiday, I live here and am integrated into the community. For me part of that is not having this inflexible barrier between me/my son and non english speakers when we are in mixed company. Here my dh and most of his friends are native catalan speakers, they also speak castellano and though now my understanding of catalan is pretty good I do not have the same fluency as I do in castellano. For the most part when they slip into talking it between each other I either understand and follow or just zone out after a while. But for years I understood little to none and always zoned out.. sometimes this left me feeling pretty excluded and hurt that no one was making the effort to speak the language we could ALL speak. So I try not to make others feel excluded, because I know how it can feel.

And I would like my ds to learn that as much as become fluent in english.

Well, again, I do take your point(s) - but, the way I read it, the OP was talking as much about dealing with total strangers in the park as "integrating into a community."

Also, I am not advocating not speaking English (or any other majority language) to third parties. I am saying that I prefer not to speak English TO MY DAUGHTER, regardless of whether third parties are present. When I drop my daughter off at nursery I say "hello" to the other children - and "salut" to the two other Francophones present, because that is the language I speak to those children outside that nursery too.

Maybe, as I hinted before, it is partly about the nature of the community too. We live in South East London - recently I have heard children addressed in French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Polish, and several other languages I could not begin to identify! It would be immensely presumptuous of me, in this situation, to imagine that English was "a language the people in the park can understand", let alone that all were equally happy to use it.

But, as I hope comes across from this and all my other posts, I only speak for me. Whatever works for you, I say.

In fact, the more I read this thread, the more I begin to think that the language question is not the whole story. The big division here really seems to be about how "close-knit" the community is, how homogenous it is, and how likely you are to see these strangers again. I confess that, if I was doing exactly what I am doing with regards to my daughter's bilingualism, but in the tiny, 95% English town I grew up in instead of in London, I would probably be worrying a lot more about integrating than I actually do.

I think whatever your speaking policy is, cory's "hard sales" approach would be necessary. If a language is not fun then who would do it? We certainly have a better collection of Chinese books than the local library, and it would probably rival the collection at Charing Cross library too. We do films and serials too (youtube is invaluable). Recently I've introduced the form of riddles peculiar to the Chinese language, and if it takes introducing some less-than-polite vocabulary to retain their interest I'd resort to that too! There is something about poos and farts and other bodily functions that somehow fascinate small boys ...

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Yeah, I can see how the dynamics would change if you are the only source of your language. I do believe if you drop below a certain number of hours of speaking the language, you are going to lose it.

I can also see MIFLAWs point that community integration would depend on what the local community looks like.

This is quite a tight-knit stable suburban community, so chances are that here, the child in the park would then end up being the child that your child goes to pre-school with or ends up playing with in the afternoons or whatever. We have immigrants (including me), but very few who do not have at least some English, so it is the natural lingua franca. I ran an NCT group for International Parents (=immigrants( for years and English was the only language we had in common. I often hear other languages, but it is generally a safe assumption for this area, that people will know a little English too. In London, with a more transient population, I imagine that might be different.

With the community thing, I am partly influenced by the fact that my Mum, who moved within her own country, never integrated into her new community. 15 years later she was still seeing herself as an outsider, still talking about how we don't really belong here, still yearning for home, hadn't really made any friends and had clearly no desire to become part of the place where she was destined to spend 25 years of her life. Tbh it wasn't the best social training I could have had. So when I moved abroad I was very determined that I would do things differently.

Aha that explains why you feel so strongly about integrating into the community! Nothing wrong with it at all, it's great! Me and DH are the opposite, we're a bit antisocial at times... mainly because we're not that happy where we live and are trying to move back to London.

DD is only 17 months and so far I find it very hard to bring myself to speak english to her, but sometimes I do it at nursery or with friends. But I'm getting the feeling that when kids are older it will feel easier to switch languages when needed, and hopefully by then their language is more established so it won't feel like we're losing the minority language just because I have a conversation in english with kids & friends. I think other people on these boards have said they felt more relaxed with older kids.

I remember when I was growing up, there were quite a lot of immigrants in my class. If they (and their parents) spoke their language too loud and for too long, I remember feeling a bit annoyed by it. So I don't think I would have a really long "conversation" with DD in swedish in front of people who don't understand. (Except DH of course! "you don't understand? learn to..." )

Well, it helps that it is a very nice community to integrate in . I might have found a village a bit more stifling.

Also, I am very aware that dd, who is disabled, and ds, who has the same potentially disabling condition, are going to need good social skills to cope with life: they will always rely on other people to some extent; I need to help them to feel good about that. I'll never forget dd's reaction when I told her a little proudly that I was a bit of a lone wolf when I was at school. 'Yes', she said, nodding thoughtfully, 'that was a luxury that you could afford.'

Just wanted to add that as kids get older, of course personality will play a role in how bilingual or not your DC are.

I know a family with three boys. Each raised with OP/OL but with three very different outcomes which to me, appear to reflect their personalities:

Child 1: shy, quiet, hates being centre of attention, will speak majority language to minority parent in public as hates to be perceived as different. Balanced bilingual at home.

Child 2: Life and soul of the party type, loves to speak minority language in all sorts of situations to show off (in the nicest possible way), show he is different. Perfect balanced bilingual.

Child 3: Perhaps too little to judge, but majority language is much stronger, always speaks to big brothers in majority language, bit of a scamp, bit lazy, can't be bothered to speak minority language. Hates being corrected in minority language.

So, expect potentially different outcomes with different kids!