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Parenting

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Any chance i can ask about the MMR? is it likely to cause carnage???

55 replies

QueenofVenus · 05/07/2009 11:54

My DP and i have had a great debate about this last night, he has a son from a prev rel, i have 3 from prev rel, and we now have one on the way (only first trimester early days so WAY too soon to be arguing over it anyway, but you know how these heated debates go!) My 3 have NOT had the MMR nor will they ever! his son has, so we are greated with a great confrontation, he says its all bullshit and its MORE then safe, its just stupid people believing everything they hear/read i know of a handful of kids who have had 'reactions' to it (to varying degree's) 3 of which do now have serious autism! Can anyone help me out here, am i being, as he describes a 'stupid parent' or is there genuinly a cause for concern that although its not proven its not worth the risk???? help!

OP posts:
Powdoc · 06/07/2009 11:02

Absolutely!

Supercherry · 06/07/2009 12:19

Queenofvenus, I just want to add, if any of your children are female then please make them aware before they are likely to consider having children themselves the risk to the unborn baby when the mother is not vaccinated against these diseases (measles can kill the unborn baby, rubella can cause severe abnormalities). If you have sons, make them aware that mumps can cause fertility problems.

I know it's a long time in the future, but have you considered these risks also? Are you yourself vaccinated?

ByThePowerOfGreyskull · 06/07/2009 12:27

I don't think anyone who takes seriously the risks associated with the decisions we make for our children could be counted as being silly at all.

we owe it to our children to make these decisions clearly, and if you and your partner have differing views the only thing you can do is keep talking until you get to a point of understanding, from there you will probably be able to come to an agreement.
Good luck

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

pagwatch · 06/07/2009 12:34

Well I personally think that this issue is more about your relationship than the MMR.
If you feel that the MMR may have been involved in the three cases with which you are familiar then your DP callingthat view "stupid" and expecting you to do as he says does not sound terribly, well parent-like.

You are supposed to try and reachthese decisions jointly and whilst respecting each others feeling and views.

So I would talk to him about your concerns and ask him if his calling your genuine anxiety 'stupidty' is the way all parenting issues will be approached.

I also agree with those who say that when looking at this issue it is wise to ignore anyone who suggests that it is simple or straightforward.
It is difficult and should be given your full thought and attention, and with the knowledge that whatever you decide there may be consequences. It is what parenting is all about.

tryingherbest · 06/07/2009 21:27

My view is this - I think vaccines are great - they are there to help all of us and I dismay at people who rely on other people's kids being vaccinated to protect their kids - doesn't work mate.

However, I'm not so hot on giving little ones lots of vaccines all in one go.

Yep, that research was proved to be fundamentally flawed HOWEVER, it doesn't prove that vaccines don't harm anyone.

I'm a first time mum and I had all the vaccines done on time and had the MMR done privately (seperately) - I just felt that the money I paid was the worth the peace of mind (as a first time mum) not shitting my pants about every developmental milestone or getting scared over a lack of response from my little one.

My view is vaccines are great. I'm personally not great on lots of vaccines in one go on tiny immune systems. /That's my view as someone who is neither a medic or a scientist.

cory · 07/07/2009 08:49

I had mine done- we have no case of autism in the family and no indication that mine would be vulnerable even if MMR was proved to be a factor

whether I would have felt the same if I already had one autistic child is a different matter

as it is, I am grateful that they've had it done and with no ill effects

lljkk · 07/07/2009 16:26

Does MMR contain mercury? I thought I read on NHS website that MMR had NEVER contained thimerosol (the mercury-based preservative). The only paediatric vaccine containing thimerosol WAS the old DTP (2-3-4 month 4-in-1 jab) -- which was phased out in 2004, replaced with the modern 5-in-1. Are there traces of mercury still in all vaccines?

ALL vaccines still contain aluminium salts, don't they? To provoke immune system response, I understood.

stillstanding · 07/07/2009 16:39

With regards to the single jabs, I thought that apart from cost they are also not as effective as the combined jab ... is that right?

wannaBe · 07/07/2009 17:21

there is no right or wrong answer. I do find though, that those who are most vocal about vaccinations are those that are pro vaccinating, who don't have any experience to go on. You don't tend to find those who haven't vaccinated calling those who do idiots, whereas it frequently happens the other way around.

At the end of the day it's a personal choice. And even if you disregard the fear of a link between mmr and to autism, vaccine damage does happen, and that should not be disregarded purely on the basis that it only happens to a few children. One child damaged by, let's face it, man-made vaccination is one too many.

JollyPirate · 07/07/2009 17:35

... and one child dying needlessly from an easily preventable illness is one too many. Sorry if that seems too snippy but it's true.

A local 3 year old child died recently from a complication of her chicken pox. She was a previously healthy child. We cannot ever know how our children will react to childhood illnesses. Personally I'd much rather reduce my child's (rare) risk of dying from an illness by immunising than believe a piece of research based upon just 12 children and blown up out of all proportion by the media. How many children have died as a result of that? Too many I think.

NigellaTufnel · 07/07/2009 17:46

One crucial point that was made on Radio Four the other day was the frustration of scientists with the coverage of the MMR debate in the press.

In most articles the journos at least to try to get a balanced view, so you would get one voice pro and one voice anti.
Therefore people would believe that there was at least some parity in scientific opinion. Whereas the anti MMR section was tiny compared to the pros.

Wakefield has been discredited.

However, you are NOT stupid to be concerned about your children. Of course not.

I may disagree with the anti MMR crowd, and indeed resent the fact that a newborn is now more at risk from deadly diseases because of them, but I don't think they are stupid.

mumtoted · 07/07/2009 18:16

I think you need to be sure of your facts and give him documentation to back up your side of things. I also wonder how many people do the research on the many vaccines that come before MMR? And how did we all manage not to die in infancy of all these diseases we are urged to vaccinate against? A good starting point for me was 'The Informed Parent', saves time on trying to find info on the net as it gathers recently published articles on vaccination,
for and against, from around the world.
I also find it fascinating that there are 2 huge communities in America ( one being the Amish) who do not vaccinate and also do not have any autism.
If you choose not to vaccinate it is wise to think what other measures you will take, such as feeding your dc organic food , boosting their immune system, using a homeopath etc. There has been some threads on here from mums with dc with measles and asking for advice. Find out before how to help if it should happen.

RenagadeMum · 07/07/2009 18:27

Fine, get your single vaccines if thats what you feel best. BUT............

Please get the baby vaccinated in some way.

A month ago my friends 11 month old baby (who obviously could not yet be immune) got measles from a 3 year old boy from church whose parents believed it was in his best interest not to vaccinate.
My friends baby ended up having to have emergency bowel surgery due to the measles complications. Before this he was vomiting blood. They only just operated in time.

My friend has an autistic brother. As she feels, measles can kill. Her brother can function in life. Her child nearly died for the right of another parent not to vaccinate.
The parents in question are desperately upset but the whole thing and have now vaccinated their son.

juicy12 · 07/07/2009 18:42

wannabe Got to take issue with your point about "I do find though, that those who are most vocal about vaccinations are those that are pro vaccinating, who don't have any experience to go on. You don't tend to find those who haven't vaccinated calling those who do idiots, whereas it frequently happens the other way around." One of the reasons that those who haven't vaccinated don't call pro-vaccinators (sp?) idiots is because maybe they're quietly grateful that by immunising their child, the pro-vaccinator is protecting the child of the anti-vaccinator. Not entirely sure, either, that feeding your child organic food is going to protect it that much from catching measles, mumps or rubella.

wannaBe · 07/07/2009 22:18

"We cannot ever know how our children
will react to childhood illnesses." And equally we cannot ever know how our children will react to vaccinations.

There have been a few cases recently in the states where parents have received payouts following vaccine damage from the mmr. So vaccine damage is a real risk. As a parent, it is up to us to weigh up that risk against the possible risk of the associated illnesses.

As I said before, there is no right or wrong answer. Because what for one is the right thing to do, i.e. to vaccinate their child, is not the right thing for the parent of the child with a compromised immune system.

Qally · 08/07/2009 01:44

Starlight - there's no mercury in the MMR. Even Halvorsen (owns a clinic selling single jabs, claims MMr is unsafe) says so, on his website.

There have been studies (hundreds of thousands of children) in several countries now, one of which is especially useful, for very apparent reasons: it's a whole population study in a first world country (Japan) where the MMR went from compulsory to unused, over a scare about the mumps element. They found that autism rose sharply while the MMR was not being used. They also found that some children died of measles, even with singles, when that hadn't happened with the MMR. (Leading to the conclusion that singles aren't as effective, and they went back to using the MMR.) Another huge study in Denmark, over half a million children, found that children were slightly less likely to be diagnosed with autism after vaccination.

Wakefield's research - which was only ever meant to be an observational, straw in the wind study of just 12 children in the first place - has in most scientists' minds been discredited by the preponderance of research since, showing no link. In fact 10 of the 13 researchers who worked with him have themselves said they disagree with the conclusion and that there's no link, and additionally Wakefield was (BEFORE the study in question) being paid half a million quid by lawyers acting for parents who were suing vaccine companies. He's also had some extremely serious accusations leveled at him in terms of falsifying the data, and having patented a rival vaccine, which would have been very profitable if the MMR had been withdrawn in its favour. This may all be irrelevant to his results, of course (he might well have been acting with the best intentions), but what is undeniable is that they've not been properly replicated by anyone else, despite much trying. Replication is one of the core requirements when testing a scientific hypothesis. If something is true then it holds true when more people try to prove it.

The US Center for Disease Control links to this side-by-side analysis of the science as it stood a couple of years ago. More studies strongly indicative of no link have been published since - and in peer-reviewed journals, which is rather important for self-evident reasons. The most recent study found no link, and it was actually designed in consultation with anti-vaccine groups, in an effort to resolve the problem.

The remaining suggestion is that there may or may not be a very small subset of children with ASD relations who have the condition "triggered" by vaccination, and the final bit of research has been commissioned into that specific area (as a small part of a huge and wide-ranging study into vaccine safety in general) by the US governmental organisation responsible, who obviously have a real responsibility to do so as vaccinations are more or less compulsory in much of the USA. They also stress that they need to fill any gaps in the research so they can effectively persuade people to vaccinate. The problem is it's very hard to prove or disprove, by the very nature of the dispute. I mean, you can postulate anything, it doesn't mean it's so, but it may be very hard indeed to find the evidence to conclusively say either way - which is why there's been such an explosion in research over the MMR. But the small subset theory is at this point a suggestion without any sort of evidential basis, and it's very hard to conclusively disprove, because ethically you can't create a double-blind controlled trial where vaccination is concerned. You can't give one set a placebo, one the MMR and one nothing and wait and see what happens - because not vaccinating is accepted by all the health bodies as dangerous, and you're damaging herd immunity by failing to do so, if the group is big enough to mean much (small groups are risky, because the results can be so skewed). And without such a trial all you can do is observational - find parents with ASD in the family and who have already decided to either refuse or accept vaccination for their kids, and see what happens. And it's also a tiny, tiny affected group, if it exists - not just a tiny proportion of all children, but a tiny proportion of children with ASD relations. If that group does exist - and it is, right now, an unsupported if - it's appalling and awful for their families, and it needs to be identified as soon as humanly possible, but it's also the case that measles can kill and vaccination needs to be widespread enough to prevent the disease gaining a hold. It kills a million children in the developing world every single year - that's why Bill Gates is funding vaccination programmes - and children have died recently in first world countries where measles has gained a foothold too, so it isn't the case that Western children are not affected.

It's also worth pointing out that the government don't in fact vaccinate, willy nilly. They decided against the chicken pox vaccination, which is in force elsewhere, on public health grounds. So the government doesn't, actually, take a blanket approach. Vaccination is expensive to administer on a whole population level, after all.

I wouldn't blame a parent with a close relative who was on the autistic spectrum for refusing to have their child vaccinated, because they obviously have to do what they think is right in the absence of definitive data (though it's also been reported that hardly any siblings of ASD children get the MMR, yet the incidence is hugely higher, nonetheless) but tbh I would blame those not in that sort of situation, who don't. Herd immunity means all our kids are safe, and so much research has now been conducted into MMR safety, and it's overwhelmingly coming down on the side of their being no link. If there is a tiny subset at risk (which tbh I don't believe) then those children, no less than infants and children with allergies or immune system problems that make vaccination dangerous - depend on the rest of the not-risked population to vaccinate, to protect them as well.

If there is a conspiracy, and vaccination is in fact dangerous and we're all being misled, then it's one colossal and enormous conspiracy at all levels of health provision and research, and honestly it just seems a bit odd that so much research has now gone in favour of no link. You can't easily nobble that many scientists - I'll buy the odd few here or there, but all of them? (When some of the work has been done free, pro bono, precisely to avoid any apparent conflict of interest?) Plus the governmental and international organisations, and the health services of the world - are they all conspiring to damage our children just to benefit big pharma? It just seems more likely that they want to stop dreadful and communicable diseases killing and harming people, really.

Qally · 08/07/2009 01:50

I also find it fascinating that there are 2 huge communities in America ( one being the Amish) who do not vaccinate and also do not have any autism.

A journalist on an anti-vaccine website said that. Problem is that the Amish apparently do vaccinate. Additionally, autism partly relies on diagnosis, and a syndrome with autistic features has actually been identified amongst the Amish. Autism also has a genetic element and the Amish tend to intermarry, so the claim is actually open to criticism on that basis, too.

"Strauss adds that the Amish have a high prevalence of genetic risk factors and are protected from others. The low rate of idiopathic autism ?might have more to do what genetic structure of population than lifestyle, environment or diet.?"

Qally · 08/07/2009 04:49

Sorry, also forgot - Wannabe - the only case I know of in the USA is Hannah Poling, who had a very rare mitochondrial disorder, and then developed a regressive condition (regressive encephalopathy) with autistic features. This can be triggered in people with the underlying disorder by a febrile reaction to the MMR - or any other illness that causes high temperatures. (A cold could do it, if a high fever resulted.) It was possibly the MMR in that she reacted with a high fever, which could have triggered the condition, but not the MMR in that almost any bug resulting in a fever could have done the same, and has in other children. In fact parents whose kids have mitochondrial disorders are advised to vaccinate unless a reaction is particularly likely, just as any other parent is, because those kids really couldn't cope with the actual diseases. Finally, the courts weren't sure if her ear infections or the MMR caused the fever, but as it's a government funded compensation scheme that pays out they said it was sufficient that there was doubt over the vaccine in her case. (Quite rightly, obviously.)

The class action lawsuit in question found resoundingly against a link in every other case. Are there other cases where the courts have agreed autism potentially came from the MMR? I've not come across any?

I also forgot to say to the OP: if you know several people who believe their kids have been seriously harmed by the MMR, you'd have to be pretty irresponsible not to be concerned, really. I happen to agree with your DH's view on the science side, but I've not met anyone who thinks their child was damaged, either. No wonder you're so torn.

Loopymumsy · 08/07/2009 08:32

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sarah293 · 08/07/2009 08:46

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Beachcomber · 08/07/2009 09:39

There is no simple answer to this and anyone who claims that there is is expressing a personal opinion.

One of the problems is that it is difficult to get clear information. One of the reasons for this IMO, after having done a fair bit of reading, is because this is a political issue as well as being a scientific one.

It is pretty much being accepted now in the US that a subset of the population does not react well to the challenge of a triple vaccine and a heavy vaccine schedule in general. The UK government is still relunctantly lagging behind, dragging its feet.

I read recently that funding has been made available to develop a safer, non live, MMR vaccine. I suspect that if such a vaccine proves viable then the current MMR will be quietly withdrawn and the new safer MMR will be launched with much ceremony.

BTW the MMR does not contain mercury as a preservative as it is a live vaccine.

Also Dr Wakefield et al's research has not been scientifically discredited. I know we often read in the press or on forums that it has but this is simply not true. I challenge anyone on this thread who says that it has to link to the study that has directly replicated Wakefield's work on the target population and found his results to be flawed. It is not scientifically possible to do this with epidemiology BTW and the Hornig study fails to replicate Wakefield as it did not examine the target population.

However having said that Wakefield's work applies to a small subset of the population. He has never said that his work relates to all or even a majority of autism. What he does say is that it is pretty devastating for those for whom his work does apply. This small but significant subgroup should not and must not be ignored just because the rest of us vaccinate with no problem.

Good luck making your decision, I would recommend a chat with Dr Halverson too.

His clinic's website states clearly how they work and gives some info about singles.

www.babyjabs.co.uk/index.htm

Beachcomber · 08/07/2009 09:59

Qally your post is full of misinformation, libel and studies which have been shown to be seriously flawed.

Wakefield did not patent a rival vaccine (which is an utterly ridiculous and unrealistic claim anyway when one knows how vaccine development, licensing and production works) and the journalist who has spread rumours that he did is currently under investigation by The Press Complaints Commission (PCC) for publishing misinformation about Dr Wakefield and his work.

Thoughtful House has issued a 58 page complaint against Deer and the PCC has ordered that the Sunday Times remove everything written by Deer about Wakefield from their website.

Deer has been presenting himself as an independant reporter when in fact his involvement with the GMC hearing shows him to be no such thing. This puts both the Sunday Times and the GMC in a highly embarrassing situation.

There is a thread about it here.

Beachcomber · 08/07/2009 10:11

Forgot to say there have been a total of 13 cases where courts have ruled in favour of litigants where vaccines have played a role in autism.

www.generationrescue.org/evidence-science/12-vaccine-court-13-consessions.htm

Qally · 08/07/2009 11:12

Beachcomber - the studies I cited aren't regarded as flawed by any recognised or respected scientific organisations. They're peer reviewed studies published in leading scientific journals. Things don't cease to be respected, just because you don't like the conclusions. Any study supporting the lack of a link is automatically rubbished by the most extreme anti-vaccination sites; it doesn't really matter how well supported or designed it is, it's an automatic response to every piece of evidence that fails to support their beliefs - which is most of the evidence, lets be honest.

Nor are my comments libellous, because Wakefield stopped a libel suit on the subject and paid the other side's costs in full - and the PCC has not found in favour of Wakefield as you imply, even on the statement you link to which is by Wakefield's own organisation; it's cited as being an interim decision pending PCC investigation. That isn't the same as a finding in his favour, not even close, and it's interesting that he hasn't tried to sue again - and that the Times are confident enough to print such articles, despite serious and sustained efforts to silence them. Finally, it's a matter of legal record that Wakefield was censured by a high court judge for seeking to use the libel laws to stifle scientific debate.

You don't cite respected scientific journals in your comments. You link to organisations which selectively and dishonestly report the facts, and you don't appear to read or give credence to anything from anywhere else. (Have you read reports and articles from organisations that aren't so obviously with an agenda? You don't ever cite reports or studies directly - whereas I'm quoting the Center for Disease Control, and peer reviewed journals, so it's kind of odd that you think I'm the one providing weak science, tbh.) On the matter of weak science, and since we're quoting the blogosphere, there's an interesting critique of the science behind Generation Rescue's reporting of the vaccine injury cases here which discusses their endless goalpost moving, and the actual medical conditions suffered by the children in question. You might find it interesting and informative.

The OP specifically didn't want a bunfight, so forgive me if I don't respond to you further.

OP - the US Center for Disease Control has very thorough and detailed discussions on vaccine safety on their website, which is a good place to look. This is also a good article on the controversy, which collates the evidence and information rather well, and finishes by discussing how best to move forward.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

lljkk · 08/07/2009 11:59

Thanks for your posts, Qally. I was 99.9% sure the mention of mercury was complete falsehood. I hope you don't get slated hard for what you've said!

I respect parents who research carefully, cite true facts and hard evidence -- and still choose not to vaccinate.

However, I feel upset about people who (like OP, has already chosen not to vaccinate 3 of her DC) don't appear well-informed about why they chose not to. These seem to be same people who stampede to the doctor's surgery when a local outbreak of disease occurs in their community. In the meantime they take risks they don't appear to understand and otherwise contribute to the breakdown of herd immunity -- none of it for defensible reasons. To give her credit, at least OP is trying to get her facts straight now.

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