Bilingual family chat thread

[teafortwo]

I come from a very mono-linguistic background. All my family and extended family speak the same language and being able to speak another language was seen as something rather nice but not really necessary for life. A bit grammar "Ooooh aaaarrr - d'jya know 'e gows to Grammar school yeeeaah! 'e even tawks French, my God!" I suppose.

My family are lovely and deep thinking clever people who don't talk like that - but it is just to show you in a sentence what I mean!

So... it is intensely fascinating and a great challenge to find myself bringing up a bilingual daughter.

I am a bit very addicted to reading any articles or books on bilingualism and am keen to know people in real life who are also bringing up bilingual children. Actually most of my friends children speak two languages - Some Moldavian friends of mine gasped at the idea that I only speak English fluently... "Just English? But how do you live?!?" They asked - as if I had announced I never drink water.

I thought - it might be fun to have a kind of Mumsnet bilingual chat thread where we can talk about the day to day highs, the lows, the funny bits and the sad bits of having a bilingual family and swap advice, ideas, theories, reading material (I am after a good summer read) and anything-else it would be useful to pool.

So.... .... what do you think?

hi all,
love reading about other bilingual households, good to know we're not freaks!

I (Irish) speak English to dc and dh (French) speaks French. Kids are 8, 6 and 4. We lived in Ireland until dd1 was 4. She and dd2 spoke English only but dh spoke to them in Fr always and they understood.

When we moved to France the progress in french was amazing. DD1 went from being too shy/confused/overwhelmed to speak at all, to speaking fluently within about 6 or 8 weeks. I was amazed. So the language was really there after years of listening.

At this point they are all properly bilingual, making a few mistakes now and then but nothing serious. I do think though that the wheel is slowly turning and soon I will have to reinforce their English. We're so bad at reading together etc, but have plans over the summer.....

Hello Pillowcase!

waves

I find the way they grunt in the mornings when it's time to get out of bed is neither French nor English but rather universal.

kapusta...

This is my current read. It is fairly academic but really interesting I keep photocopying bits to give to people I know...

www.amazon.co.uk/Bilingual-Family-Handbook-Parents-Linguistics/dp/0521004640/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=b ooks&qid=1246350092&sr=8-10

These two books are wonderful for getting a feel for how everyone approaches bilingualism and general thoughts and feeings on it...

www.amazon.co.uk/Bilingualism-Development-Language-Literacy-Cognition/dp/0521635071/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UT F8&s=books&qid=1246350092&sr=8-3

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415333326/ref=s9_simz_gw_s0_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=cente r-1&pfrdr=0PBSDGSGT0SDR7NFW5QX&pfrdt=101&pfrdp=467198433&pfrdi=468294

Here are some nice little features on bilingualism... although it is only when I was making the links I realised how old they are...

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2004/mar/03/familyandrelationships.features10

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/jun/22/familyandrelationships.features113

pillowcase - my dd says the French "aaaiiiiyyyyaa" when she is hurt! I don't know why but for some reason I would love her to say "ouch"!

[daft bat emotion]

TFT - thank you so much! I will really enjoy looking at these links.

I have a question for all you bilingual families. Which language do you use to refer to yourself and your DH/DP when you are talking to your DC? If your native language is English and you speak English to your children whilst your DH/DP speaks a different language to them, when you talk about him to the DC do you refer to him as Daddy or as Papa/Vati/etc.?

When I talk to DS about his dad, I always call him Daddy, and DS has now started calling him 'Da'. But when DH (a native Russian speaker) speaks to DS in Russian, he calls himself Papa. Should I also be calling DH 'Papa' when I talk about him to DS? I just hate the sound of 'Mummy and Papa' - it's so wrong somehow! 'Mummy and Daddy' sounds so much more natural - but I don't want to confuse my poor DS.

What do the rest of you do about names for family members?

Kapusta

I have to say that this is all still new for us - daughter only 17 mths - but I refer to all family members in French and my partner refers to them all in English.

This means that (because my daughter's slightly stronger language is English) she calls me "daddy" but I refer to myself as "papa" (and I'm hoping she won't start confusing "daddy" and "dada" which means "horse"!) and I refer to my own mother as "mamie" ("nan") and my partner as "maman" while my daughter calls my partner "mummy."

In other words, it could all end in tears, but for the time being this seems to be most consistent with the OPOL method which is how everything else is set up in our lives.

PS why are you a cabbage?

We do: for grandparents, my language for my parents and dh's language for dh's parents. DC call me "mama" but refer to me as "mummy", call dh "papa" and refers to him as "papa" when talking to me and "daddy" when talking to other people. When we hear "mummy" and "daddy" being brandied about it's usually when they are playing "mummies and daddies". Sounds complicated now I've written it down ...

Sorry - reading it back that's even more confusing than it was to write!

Basically, though it could be confusing, I am of the opinion that as a bilingual she will soon learn that there are at least two words for everything so there is no reason why she can't cope with the same being true for her parents.

(Even monolinguals know this in some ways - they hear other adults call their parents by first name, maybe strangers call them Mr and Mrs X or sir and madam but, to them, they are "mum" and "dad" - in other words, mummy and daddy have two or three "names" each)

Can I join in? DH and I are both English, but live in Belgium and dd goes to a french speaking school. She is 5 now, but when smaller she often dropped french words into English sentences and vice versa.

We read books and watch tv in both languages, though i am trying to encourage more french (despite DH's excessive attachment to Cbeebies ) as my main worry is that dd's vocab will not be up with that of her peers....

I so love the way DC use the languages. I could spend hours just listening to them. And they do talk for hours, usually both at the same time...

MIFLAW and slng - thanks for sharing what you do re. names.

MIFLAW - I'm sure you're absolutely right, our children are growing up learning that there are at least two words for everything, so why not for their parents too, and I know DS will soon figure it out. It's just that I've had the odd moment where I've wondered if I'm damaging him in some way by not providing him with constant, non-changing names for the two most important people in his life. It's mad, I know but he is my PFB so I'm allowed ...

P.S. No real reason for being a cabbage, there are just a lot of them about in my neck of the woods

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I find it strange saying 'call Papa for dinner' - it's like putting a French word in an English sentence, so I say 'Daddy'.

Me, I'm Mammy (and he says maman) but the awful bit for me is that Mamie is Grandma in French so sounds the same. I do HATE it when strangers think I'm the granny

I read one book on bilingualism long before I had kids (or a foreign hubby) but haven't read anything since. Anyone want to comment on some of the books to save my lazy self having to read them?

I want my children to read my novels. I'm teaching DS1 (5.5) to read and write Chinese, and will teach DS2 (3.2) too. I'm pretty bloody-minded about it, I'm afraid ... and so far they seem to want to learn ... If they stop wanting to learn I'll think up something else, but hopefully there is enough interesting stuff out there to keep them hooked...

I flipped through one or two books on bilingualism in Waterstone once and concluded that so-called "evidence" is anecdotal (I'm probably wrong - it was really was flipping through the books ) and decided to go our own way. Besides I can't think there would be anything written down that would change our minds. (Does that sound arrogant?) I'm bilingual and don't see why DC can't be, since they have a superior teacher (Now that definitely sounds arrogant. )
Record this and play it back to me when DC decided not to have anything to do with anything Chinese!

teafortwo Do you have rules for when you and your children speak English and French? If yes - Are they explicitly or implicitly learnt?

Actually there is no rule and this use to worry me a lot, as most books on bilingualism I read advocate the need for this kind of rule. But it just didn't come naturally, and after speaking with bilingual friends from varied backgrounds, I now believe that spontaneity is the best. DD does mix her languages but she seems to know who speaks what language.

Pillowcase Good to hear of other Franco-Irish households in France!

Kapusta We refer to family members in the language of their names i.e. I say "Daddy", "Granny" and I am "Maman". I actually told off my PIL for calling me "Mummy" to the children. I started calling them "Papi" and "Mami" and they stopped straight away. A friend of mine is also in a bilingual household and she referred to her partner as "Papa" so now the children call him "Papa", even though he's English.

slng I started reading a lot about the subject but I got bored as it was just making me feel guilty as I tend to switch between the 2 languages. I now think it's best to follow your own instinct.

As I would like the children to speak English to a native level, we watch British TV, we read mostly English books and we speak english 80% of the time at home. DH also works from home so they are exposed to a better level of English than mine and to a better accent!

Another French-English bilingual family here .

I have no problem referring to "Papa" when speaking English to my daughter, but DP refers to me as "Maman" when speaking to DD, and she refers to me as "Maman" when speaking French, though definitely only ever calls me Mummy to my face.

To refer back to Pitchounette's question about the extent of bilingualism we are aiming to achieve: I want DD to attain a similar level of fluency in both French and English, but I do not believe that she will, at any one time, be at precisely the same level in both languages right through her development.

Hello, we're English-French too - I'm British, DH is French, we live in France and we speak to each other in French.

We have always spoken to the DC in our mother tongues, but obviously they hear me speaking French a lot so sometimes I have to insist on the DDs speaking to me in English as they tend to gravitate towards French. But they read mostly in English, only ever watch English TV/DVDs and we visit my family as often and for as long as we can.

All 3 DC were born here but we moved to the UK for 3 years when the oldest two were little, which has been a huge bonus both for their bi-culturalism and for their accent (I know quite a few Franco-British children living here who speak English with French accents - never sure quite how that works but they do!). DS is nearly 3 and hasn't lived in the UK but has had my (almost) undivided attention since birth so speaks more English than French, at least for now

hops on to the thread as an imposter

I hope to raise a bilingual (French/English), possibly trilingual (added Dutch), family one day but for now I'm a governess for a bilingual (French/English) 7 year old in France.

He goes to a bilingual school, only speaks English with me (unless we're doing French homework) and French with his parents. His bilingual friends will speak French amongst themselves and either English or Franglais to English speaking adults. Despising Franglais as I do I insist they speak either pure French or pure English to me but will only respond in English unless they're hurt or very distressed.

Speaking as a bilingual person I never reached precisely the same level in both languages. Whilst at school and growing up, French was my dominant language. Since university English has become my main language and for certain specialised subjects (eg accounting and baby stuff) my only language.

As a child I used to find it irritating if people who could understand both languages would insist on "pure" English or French.

Out of interest, why, malfoy?

I don't mind them switching halfway through an afternoon, or even a conversation. What I object to is "XXX, so-and-so m'a hit and il m'a hurt. Je veux que you tell him off." Or "XXX can I have some jus d'orange, please?"

We have had a lovely day. DD had a little Algerian-French friend over to tip all her toys on the floor with and roll around giggling lots play.

Dd's friend speaks French and Arabic. It is funny because her and dd speak in French together but also enjoy copying each other's other language. Today DD said "I want my hat on." and her friend who was wearing a big bright pink hat of her own went "ey waaarrr ma heer-at on!" which made me giggle because she was wearing a very obvious hat and she giggled too because she finds the music of English delightful to make even when she doesn't know what she is saying!

Her first English word because of us was 'Baaaaybeeeey" because at the time we called her baby ............ because she was little and the exotic sound of the 'ay' dipthong and long 'e were simply magical to her young sensitive ears.

Dd, I am told, follows simple instructions in Arabic, counts to five or three depending on how she feels and says makhaba (welcome) to anyone who walks through the door when she is at her friend's place. This on a few occasions has been a bit of a surprise for their guests, I suppose they wouldn't expect to be greeted in such a way by a little pale skinned, ginger English girl... but, hey, why not?

This on a few occasions has been a bit of a surprise for their guests, I suppose they wouldn't expect to be greeted in such a way by a little pale skinned, ginger English girl...

I think it's important for them to have friends in similar situations (like your dd's Algerian-French friend teafortwo). My DCs are the only bilingual kids in our school (apart from a couple of English kids who don't have a French parent and struggle a bit). But DD1 is doing music on Weds and there's a girl with English Dad and French Mum there. They hit it off straight away and really get on well. The best news for DD was when friend told her she's moving schools next year, so will be in DD's class. DD said to me "I'm so excited because she's like me" (meaning mixed-language family) and I realise that it's important to her.

The ability to say "I am sacred of the big bear on my big brother's bed" in different languages is, I discover, not very endearing at 2 o'clock in the morning...