Hideous witching hours with 3 & 4 year old - any advice very gratefully received

[Pennies]

Just recently I've been having a really terrible time at dinner, bath and bedtime with my two DDs (aged 3 & 4). They are just hyper, no matter what I do and it ends up with me getting angry, them getting angry and for the past three nights they've gone to bed without a story which means that we're all missing out on our best time together all day.

I did genuinely feel that the main problem is that they're too tired so I've been sending them to bed 30 mins early, with the only result of that being that they're waking up 30 mins earlier. This makes me think that perhaps it's not tiredness that's the issue, although the 3 year old goes to sleep in just a couple of minutes at bedtime.

I've been giving them quiet time in the afternoon, as well as letting DD2 sleep until she wakes naturally if she nods off in the car, whereas normally I'd rouse her.

I've tried anger, I've tried trying to joke them out of it, I've tried threats which I've always followed through on (no story, as above), I've tried punishments (naughty step etc), I've tried quiet non-response but they just seem to wind each other up into a frenzy and short of separating them from each other for those two hours (not exactly possible) I can't see what to do. On that note, when they are separated then they're just gorgeous but it's just that they make each other bonkers. What can I do about that?

My 4 year old seems to be the ring leader and she's incredibly willful towards me, she threatens to smack me, calls me stupid, refuses to help tidy up. This PM she did actually start smacking me and I ended up having to forcibly restrain her arms. Then, once the moment is passed she is remorseful, loving, and pledges to be good despite not really seeming to remember what it is that she has done.

I have got sooo upset tonight about this and have seen the utter worse side of my parenting come out. When I restrained her I yelled at her big time and scared her so much she couldn't physically speak . I hate myself for that happening and I should have had more self control, but to have her slapping me repeatedly just tipped me over the edge.

Anyone got any tips to help us get through this each night without all this awfulness.

Its bloody awful - ds1 and ds2 can both be like this (6 and almost 4) - also have 6 month old ds3 in the equation

Something that works for me is doing dinner s early as possible for them and tryng to structure the witching hour as much as possible

What time do you do dinner?

I have found that at normal dinner time they're mucking around with it so tonight O decided to switch dinner and bath time around and whilst they ate dinner they were so bonkers and horrible that I ended up separating them ad DD1 ate hers at a toddler table in the hall. Not how I want them to experience meal times, but it's becoming more frequent that we resort to this tactic.

We get in from school just before 4 and if they are especially knackered I sometimes opt to do a really qiuck 'rubbishy' dinner as soon as possible..
They didnt eat til 5:45 tonight (dh was off and was cooking...he doesnt understand the witching hour....) and they were dreasdful and falling asleep at the table.

If its just me and the boys, I try to aim for 4:30-5 dinner as it's just me dealing with the fall out and bed time

I also never let all 3 have a bath on the same night!

are you all at home in the day? could you do something ht at lunch time ansd sandwiches at 'dinner' time

My 2 aged almost 4 and 2.5 are just like this. I do dinner early (5ish) and then bath shortly afterwards. Then is usually tolerate a certain amount of wild naked frenzied behaviour and if I can I structure it into gymnastics/races or something. Then I put cbeebies on and do bottles for 2.5yo and 10mo dd2.

Baby then goes to bed and I will try to do snuggles/story on the sofa or just watch home and away and let them get on with it cos when dh comes in 5 mins before bedtime he always winds them up again anyway. Then dh puts them to bed at 7pm.

And I let out a deep breath and put my feet up!

Could it be a low blood sugar thing that then spirals in to bad behaviour that never really resolves?

Could you try doing dinner at 4:30-5 ish and then do quiet time afterwards (even if it means a DVD) but with you doing it with them - quality time together. It sounds like your 4 year old is after attention of some sort or has got herself caught up in a spiral that she can't break.

I'm not sure of your routine but i do think that some hard exercise before dinner is an absolute must - they sound like they may need a physical outlet to some pent up energy?

By the way - don't feel bad about you shouting - I know it's not great but I SO get where you're coming from

This morning DD1 was just the same. It was as if she took over where she left off the moment she got out of bed and it went on until I left her at school.

I've been going down the quick, easy meal option (soup last night with bread and butter) and all that.

I agree re. exercise and tonight I'll be taking them on a walk to see how that affects the mood.

Really not enjoying them at the moment.

How did this evening go.=#

#I have had a terrible day with ds2 - took him 40 minutes to be persuaded to go into nursery then he just had a melt down at bedtime as he wanted a baby cup for his drink. he is 4 tomorrow.