Sleep and 9mo...desperate...feel like I'm going crazy

[wishbird]

Sorry - bit long this one but:

9MO DS - last couple weeks has started wakeing in the night again...now I know this is normal - fully expecting it, but...he stays awake for ages! 2-3 hoours! it's really getting me and DP down - we are fighting lots, and I lost it last night - ranting round the bedroom like some strange mad lady on the attic!

We have tried everything - quiet, no lights, stories, feeds, teething gel, rocking, singing, co-sleeping (he hates it!) - nothing works! Also have 2 teens who are getting increasingly grumpier (more than even the average teens...) with night disturbance - both DS yelling, and me and DP arguing! (Strangely the last couple days it's only when one or the other of loses it slightly, and we argue (in quiet but venomous voices!) that then DS yawns and goes to sleep!) We don't yell at each other - it's all hushed I hasten to add...

I am back at work on Monday which I am now dreading all the more, as I am like a wreck even with the occasional catnap during the day...

He is in our room as nowhere else to put him - bit unfair for him to be in eihter teen room, and no more bedrooms - but it's not us disturbing him, as it's always way after we go to bed - usually about 3-ish...Can't leave him cry (even if I wanted to - which I don't think I could anyway) because further disturbs teens who have to bleary-eyed get up for school each day...

Just feel so so depressed and anxious - beginning not to like my DS very much...he's so grumpy in day now too as he is also tired...

any advice welcome.....

Do you know why he is waking up again?
And what does he do that prevents him from going back to sleep?

Hi daddy,

Not sure if I'm honest - teeth perhaps, though we didn't have this when the bottom 2 came through.

He's just awake! He is sometimes happy enough for a bit, or sometimes grizzles - you know that rather irritating whinge that is not proper crying, just moaning! (sorry DS!) He does also get proper upset sometimes, I guess when he is over tired...it's just the length of time he's awake...I'll be kneeling next to the cot rubbing his belly, and he's drift in and out for perhaps half hour...then that won't work and he starts yelling...pick up, put down, cuddles, feed, jigging, singing...just nothing seems to make any difference...it was over 3 hours the other night...arghhh... am so unhappy

When you said 'waking again' does that mean
that he usually sleeps well and has slept through for quite some time now?
Of his own accord?

If you think it's teething have you tried giving him teething granules/bonjela or even calpol?

Yes - he has always been a good sleeper - even when he was still night feeding as a little baby he would just wake - feed and back off to sleep all within half hour at most...lucky I know...

has been sleeping through for about 3/4 months now - most nights anyway - or sometimes brief wake for feed...i wouldn't mind that - it's the length of time he's awake that's a killer!

Tried bonjela, teething rings etc - and did give him calpol last night though felt really guilty as not 100% sure it's teeth - just desperate!

I do know that bebies wake - was fully expecting it - like I say it's the length of time that is so difficult - both DP and I are awake as don't want to take him downstairs in case that reinforces any waking patterns etc - though beginning to think we may have to do that and take turns so at least one of us gets a little sleep...

Feel so guilty that I am coping so badly with this, and am so grumpy and angry...Bad mum or what!

And this has been going on for a few weeks?
Would you say it's becoming a regular habit now
i.e. is he waking up at certain times in the night
or is it random?

Look, there is no need to just leave him to cry
but you might want to review various sleep training methods
because you are not happy and even he is not happy
so it might be time to communicate more effectively to him
that night times are for sleeping.

That is, if you are SURE that there is nothing
physically wrong with him.

thanks for your continued help...

it's not every night (thank goodness) but sometimes every other, or even every 3rd day - for the last few weeks...quite random really -

not 100% sure that it's not teeth - but pretty sure it's nothing else physical - eating, wetting/dirty nappies all normal etc - generally happy contented little chappie (except when grumpy through tiredness...)

what sleep techniques?

I had two poor sleepers who got worse at this age. If it's not teething there's always something. I can't help you with his sleep but the way I kept my sanity, knowing I was going to be up 2/3 hours in the night and then at work was to give up evenings and go to bed as early as possible- often 8.30.
My DH went in the spare room and I got some sleep , albeit disturbed.No point both of you being awake.
DH did the "night shift " at weekends.

I don't know if this helps, but my DD2 used to do the groaning grizzling sound at various periods through the night, but we just left her - it seemed to be her way of getting to sleep. And now she is 1, she doesn't do it anymore.

If she cried, we always left it a minute (no more) before going in, just to be sure she was not just crying in her sleep (babies do sometimes, just for a few seconds) and then searched for her dummy, popped it back in and that was it. (we then started putting 5 dummies in her cot and then she would just find an alternative and pop it in herself)

Do you think he is napping too much in the day? By 9 months DD2 had 1 nap 0830-0915, 1 lunchtime 1300-1500 and then nothing til bedtime at 7pm. She would wake around 0630.

Jewels - he doesn't really nap much at all - never has - maybe 20 mins in morning, and between half and one hour in afternoon - that's it! He goes to sleep between 7.30-8pm, and if he doesn't wake up in the night (oh blissful event) then he usually sleeps to 6.30-7am - though sometimes earlier.

He won't take a dummy anymore either...he used to ocasionally when he was younger, but will chew it now for a couple minutes before bashing cot sides with it very loudly - or throwing it out, then expecting one of us to fetch!

Have tried ignoring his grizzling - but it is quite hard when in same room, and he soon ups it to full on wailing if left unattended!!

I know it was long time ago, but don't remember the teens doing this...I know they woke at times, but was always just a case of quietly re-settling in their chosen way - ten fifteen minutes - then back to sleep...not 3 hours!

Mumwhensdinnerready - sorry to hear you had 2 bad sleepers...hard work! i think your resignation of giving up eve's is probably the thing to do, especially next week when back at work...much as I hate the thought of it - it's only time that I can give my poor teens my full attention - bless them Love my eve's - glass of red, chats with DP and teens...arghhh - guess it's not forever...

You might want to look at a book by Richard Ferber about sleep training/sleep problems. He discusses this exact problem. His advice is to basically push the bedtime waaay back (maybe til 9 - 10) for a while to push db's sleep cycle later. Your db doesn't sound chronically overtired but I would probably work on regulating his daytime sleep too - its ok if he doesn't want to sleep for all that long, so long as he is sleeping 2x a day at predictable times.

TBH if it were me though, if nothing was wrong with him and I'd already pushed the bedtime later (with no results), then I would move myself and dh out to the couch and let him just cry it out. I know it sounds hard but it could be just a couple of lousy nights versus huge fights with your dp and tired teens EVERY night with no particular end in sight. We had to do this with db#1 at nearly 2yo when he suddenly started waking at 0430 for the day and it eventually worked. We just went in, made sure he was ok, then told him night time is for sleeping, and left. Trust me, if you wait to sort this out it will only get harder to do...

but i feel for you. db#1 only started sleeping through the night at 9mo and i nearly lost my mind and my marriage suffered too. gl!

Sorry no advice as my DS is only 15 weeks old. Just giving you some support ((((big hugs))))). I know how hard sleepless nights are. My DS really struggles with sleeping.

Wishbird I am not a fan at all of the controlled crying. Have never done it granted, but I would never do it.

Have you tried pickup/putdown? It is a baby whisperer technique and basically:
The baby cries you pick him up til he stops, then tell him it is time for sleep, lay him back down. If he cries instantly, you pick him back up again, he stops, put him back down. The result of this on the first attempt is one very angry baby (and mummy) but you re not leaving them wondering where you are, and they soon start to realise that all is going to happen is they end up being layed back down time after time. I know people who have implemented this and said within just a few nights the time spent doing the picking up/putting down was literally 20 mins.

Another avenue is that he could be overtired. I mean, my DD2 is now 12 months and she still really needs her 1300-1500 nap or she has a hard time in the night. Maybe you need to start a routine where he has a nap at a certain time, ,using the pick up/put down, and see if everything calms down? Of course, babies do tend to grow out of things, so sometimes it may be just time for that period to be over (instead of anything a book has done)

Good luck!

Hi wishbird, I have a poor sleeper too and you have my utter and complete sympathy. I know how terrible the exhaustion is. My DS has had wakeful patches as you describe, usually around teething times. Not necessarily in pain, but just awake. I videoed him crawling round the bedroom at 2am one night, just so I can show him when he's older.

I found ibuprofen more successful for this kind of thing than calpol. Also, white noise has been INVALUABLE to us. We use either the radio crackle between stations or a CD of a recorded washing machine. It seems to sooth our DS into submission in the end. It was weird to sleep with for myself for a while, but it's amazing how quickly you get used to it.

I agree he may be overtired now, which will be making it harder but there's not much you can do about that! Maybe try getting him to nap more during the day (in the buggy/ car?) which can help at night. Sleep encourages sleep, apparently.

Also agree that you need to go to bed as early as possible for a while, just to survive. The other family relationships will soon recover when everyone has had more sleep. Can you do shift parenting at weekends so you can both catch up?

None of this will cure it, but it may help ease the difficulties. It will improve- even my DS is virtually sleeping through the night now. Good luck, my dear. Big hugs and a huge glass of wine coming your way. xx

Wishbird my DS slept through from 6 weeks...and only ever had naps morning and afernoon of 20mins sometimes but very rarely it was 45 mins never anymore. We had no sleep problems whatsoever UNTIL....

I weaned him at 6 and a half months and he then woke every night...like you I was demented with the continued interupted sleep, thought I was doing something wrong and my and hubby were well at each ithers throats.

AFter beating myself up about it for weeks this is what I did - please remember this doesnt last forever it just seems it, also you have to do whats best for you and your family.

I would give him 2-3oz of milk if he woke at night, this always settled him and he went back to sleep.

I didnt interact with him or talk to him. I'd just lift him out of cot, feed him the milk, put back then go to bed.

We would take it in turns doing this or one of us would go sleep in spare room or on sofa to get those extra few mins sleep.

When this became a habit and went on for months - I used the watering down method of watering down his milk. He didnt want it then and I'd jut put him straight back.

I'd also take him out for long walks in pram/or car and he would get extra sleep
It also gave me time to re-charge my batteries, gosh sometimes I would pull up outside the house and go to sleep in the car!!!

Also teeth did play a bit part especially at 9 months he had a fair few coming.

There is noting much else to do but ride the storm.....dont think you are the only one. Also if youre feeling really rubbish get onto MUMSNET and just talk about it I post all the time and feel so much better when I just write things down. Or perhaps have a chat with the HV

Dietqueen ,mine got worse after weaning as well. It was as if they had tummy ache, I put it down to the change of diet, or teething....it's all guesswork really isn't it. I ended up breastfeeding in the night again but can't say it was that successful and you have to draw the line at night feeds eventually.
Wishbird you can still have that glass of red and wind down with the teens , just bring it forward a little. Actually I've never got out of the early night habit (not 8.30 any more but I do go to bed before my teenage son quite often).

Hi Wishbird - I'm absolutely no expert so take my advice with a pinch of salt! My dd used to have me up 6-8 times a night until she was 7 months old when after trying everything else I finally left her to cry - since then after a couple days she sleeps through most nights. My solutions to any waking since then have been clipping her dummy to her p.j's or sleeping bag (which took her a few days to get used to the fact that she could access it whenever she wants - but now loves it) and whenever she is ill or teething I give her medised - it has an antihistamine in it which can make them slightly drowsy, which seems totally unreasonable, however she is so much happier after a good nights sleep, rather than calpol and still waking up in pain - making her over tired and grumpy the next day!
Like I said - these are just my opinions, I hope nobody takes me the wrong way!?!?!
As with all babies - it's so hard to establish whats upsetting them, you just have to use your own - often sleep deprived- judgement!! Good luck

Hey all of you,

It's so reassuring to hear everyone else's stories - and know that others too go through this! And more so - that there are no difinitive answers - no right and wrong...it's easy to think that you're doing something wrong, and that you are responsible in some way for what's happening...glad it's not just me!

Am now back at work (another tough time...but should prob start another thread for that!) and the sleep issue is no better - in fact possibly worse - bless him he was up every half hour or so from 11pm - 4am last night - oh blimey! but I have to say I am exceptionally lucky to have a great DP - we have discovered that he is actually much better at night time than me! when I feel myself starting to get all tense and angry - he takes DS off and leaves me to calm down, and even nap while he settles him back to sleep...how lucky am I! Makes me feel terribly guilty, and a bit of a failure - but needs must...and as he pointed out when DS was feeding several times a night as a little baby, he couldn't help then - so now he feels he can do it!

It's so helpful to hear other people's experiences though, so thank you! I know that we will have to address it properly soon - preferably before DP collapses from exhaustion...and now the big dilemma is which of all your helpful suggestions to try first! Keep them coming please!

thanks all of you x

Wishbird - Youre doing everything right, it will pass and just as it does something else in my experience something else takes over!!!

My DS woke once from 1am - 5am - I was up every 20mins and it was his teeth. Again at 2 yrs old he woke every hour.

If youre not happy and unsure - why not pop along to your HV or even ask her for a visit?

I don't know how to put the link in properly, but I started a similar thread and had some good advice. I tweaked the day naps as I was advised(she was so inconsistent with them I didn't think it would work but it did) and this week haven't had one 2-3 hour waking during the night. She's woken very early but did more tweaking and last night she slept through to 6.10am.
See if you can get to this link and look at the other link and books.
Good luck!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/713256-Help-7-month-old-waking-for-2-hours-a-nig ht