Non-native bilingualism

[ManIFeelLikeAWoman]

I am a native English speaker and so is my partner, but we are bringing our daughter (11 mth) up bilingual - I speak to her exclusively in French, her mum speaks to her exclusively in English, my partner and I speak English to each other. I know this is not a common set up but it is not without precedent and I know I am not alone on Mumsnet. So I wanted to see how many of us there are and how it's going, and to swap notes.

I'm NOT asking for anyone's opinion whether this is the "right" thing to do, especially from people who don't do this themselves; and I'm NOT talking about people who speak their own language with their children but take them to foreign-language classes. That's very interesting too, but it's another thread.

So - who's out there and how are you finding it?

Hi ManIFeelLikeAWoman

Have just sent you an email by the way. Finally.

To everyone else, I am also a non-native but speak consistently in French to my DS who is now 3.

Funnily enough, I agree with you on the "special time" argument. I believe that speaking French has brought us even closer together. And for me personally, it is not counter-intuitive, in fact it feels really, really weird now the 1% of times I speak to him in English (usually because some snotty Mum at the NCT coffee morning accuses me of damaging his brain)

I think everyone gets their knickers in a big twist over this one. Those of us who can easily speak two plus languages forget what a challenge it is to start learning them later on. I have a gift that is very important to me and I want to pass it on to my son. So what if I had to learn the French for "front loading digger"? Now I know it and so does he. So what if he's too embarassed to speak French to me when he's older? I've given a great neurone-firing liguistic start and he'll kick arse in school French with his eyes closed.

As far as I see it, he's got everything to gain and nothing to lose from this. But then of course, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't fervently believe it was a good thing to do

I'm Dutch, my DP is Czech and we live in the UK. DP (who is the main carer) speaks Czech to our DS and I speak English to him. I have lived in the UK for 20 years and very few people now notice I am not a native.

My one problem is that I do not know all the nursery rhymes and counting games in English, and I'm sad I can't pass on the Dutch ones to our DS.

We felt that 3 languages, of which 2 would be very much low status minority languages here, would just be too confusing.

MmeMoufle - thanks for email, will get back to you asap. BTW, daughter loves Bumba! We bought it from Mediadis online.

Bearhug, I know what you mean about passing on one's own culture - I am helped, of course, in that my partner is also English, but there's still things I wish I could pass on myself - but, as for learning a new one, I just ordered a CD with lyrics (and the actions) in a book, learnt the songs myself, and then sang them to my daughter. We also go to a Francophone playgroup (not French classes - literally, a playgroup where people whose kids speak French take them to meet other kids) and a lot of what they do there is actually a fun take on cultural reinforcement - songs and actions, but also activities linked to festivals (this week the toddlers were making party hats because it's carnival). It might seem to other adults like I've cheated somehow - but, frankly, I'm more interested in what more daughter thinks of me and, if the experience is false for me (because from a book) it's genuine for her (because from her dad.)

Bearhug, from my experience 3 languages are not at all too confusing for children.

A very good friend of mine is German, her dh Swedish and the girls go to nursery/school here in the UK. Both parents consistently speak to the girls in Swedish and German, respectively (and together), and the eldest dd, now 6, speaks all 3 langages fluently. Perhaps her vocabulary isn't as advanced in the three languages as it would be if she was mono- or bilingual but that just seems a matter of time for them to catch up.

So if you wanted to speak Dutch to your DS I don't think it would be a problem for him at all. How old is he now?

I agree they are minority languages in the UK bearhug but they are not at all low status languages.

Hear, hear!

Anyway, the benefits of bilingualism - social cachet aside - are pretty much the same whichever languages are involved.

Yes, future job prospects are importnat, but the real benefits are in social skills and improved overall intelligence, literacy and creative thinking, and those come about from any combination of languages.

And after all, what's more important - maybe getting that job 20 years down the line, or being able to communicate with extended family now?

Reading some interesting research tonight on how dementia levels significantly lower here in predominantly Welsh speaking North Wales (despite us having very unhealthy lifestyles)

It is felt the bilingual factor is instrumental in this.

oh, you don't think it could be the unhealthy lifestyle?

Maybe it's a combination - maybe ordering the Chinese in Chinese offsets the deleterious effects of eating it afterwards ...

One of my SALT lecturers told me she wrote her diary in IPA (phoenetics) every night to keep her sharp.

I admit to writing mine in Welsh, French or English for same reason.

phonetics

I read in French on the bus home most nights so I'm already "in the zone" when I meet my daughter.

Ah, I've only just clocked that you're a dad not a mum. I do think that makes a huge difference. It would, as Moondog says, feel weird talking to my baby exclusively in anything other than English. But I'd have loved for DH to do so. In fact, it sounds like the ideal set up for learning a non-native second language.

I do speak a second language fluently but it's a lesser used language and almost all the speakers also use English. The thing I notice is that you have a relationship with a person in one or other language and it is utterly bizarre and disorienting when for some reason you have to switch language, like meeting a new person, no more confusing than that, indescribably odd feeling.

What I'm doing now is letting my baby hear Italian, which I'm having to learn myself. She stays with Italians while I work you see. We have got some baby nursery rhyme tapes and Living Language Baby's First Words in Italian which I've been impressed by - from that I can bring all sorts of little phrases like "tutti per terra" (all fall down) into play. I'm more comfortable with the idea that we will both gradually learn Italian so that we have a bilingual relationship if that makes sense.

Keep us posted how you get on.

When you say it makes a big difference that I'm a dad, not a mum, what do you mean? My partner works too, you see, and it's actually me that does more of the morning stuff/evening feeding and bathtime than her (bless my public sector T&C!) so in some respects I have the major linguistic input in the household. Of course, it gets countered because everyone bar me and a few French friends speaks English to her, but that's obviously about our situation rather than me being a dad.

Or did you mean that men and daughters have different relationships to women and daughters? Or something else? I'm curious now ...

Yep, I think fathers and daughters have a different relationship than mothers and daughters. I feel that mums are the primary speech-teachers. Or at least, I am certain that is the case in our household.

DH probably spends less than an hour a week one-to-one with DD, and that doesn't seem terribly unusual.

But isn't that more about time spent together, rather than a gender bond? Whereas I'm saying that, in our family, the typical situation is not the case. Is there something apart from that that makes fathers different?

Yes, I'm sure it's about time. And Mme Moufle and Racingsnake are doing the same thing so it's not purely a dad thing. I guess what was in my mind that you might not really be serious. As a child my parents used to sometimes speak French to us sometimes, and I've met many people who dip their toe into French or their ancestral language but it's rare (and lovely) to hear from people who are committed to raising a bilingual child.

I'm boringly serious, I'm afraid - so much so that I sometimes have difficulty telling other people what I'm doing in case they think I'm pretentious or just plain weird. And, because I only speak to my daughter in French, I end up hardly speaking to her at all in front of such people, so they probably think I'm weird for that reason anyway! It's something I need to get over ...

I do find it, not wrong exactly when people just speak the odd word to their kids, but a bit futile - I can't see how it would do anything other than confuse a very small child. I suppose once they're older and you start down the Jolie Ronde route their chances of distinguishing are much better - but, as a former teacher of languages by immersion, I have my doubts about the long-term effectiveness of such a programme unless it's, say, a third of the child's waking life as a bare minimum. Still, it's not my money .

MIFLAW - I see you are back with a more succinct name. Now that DS1 is older and have more of a social life, I find myself more and more in the situation of speaking a language to him that no one else understands. I read somewhere about what one could do, and have decided that I will continue speaking Chinese to him in these situation but do a translation to people we are with. So hopefully that's socially acceptable!

Funnily enough we used to visit another family quite often who spoke a different language to us. The children just waited till their respective mothers have finished berating them and asked "What did your mum say" as if it's the most natural thing in the world.

I think this is one of the biggest hurdles to bilingualism. It's a decision of society as to whether bilingualism in general is acceptable.

I think when enough of the community understand how children learn language, and when the community values bilingualism, then its okay to speak in the different languages.

When bilingualism is strange for the community, then individuals who want their children to be bilingual have to be bold and explain what they are doing. It's like being eccentric in any way. I do think it helps if you have some kind of "home" where your eccentricity is normal, if that makes sense.

It certainly helps me being able to go and "hang out" with other Francophones - and I hope it will show my daughter, too, that speaking French is normal and respectable and not just a mad trick her dad plays on her.

Hey all

This is a really interesting topic! It's been on my mind because I've been considering having a 'French' day with DD once a week but speak English the rest of the time. I'm not worried about her being bilingual but I'd like her to know a bit of the language as she grows up.

Alternatively, I was considering having a toy which only speaks French to her.

I could speak French to her all the time but besides being lazy I think I would miss sharing English words with her, IYSWIM...

Is this a really bad idea?

I think just one French day a week might feel a bit formal and artificial. Most children go through stubborn phases and I can see a child digging their heels in about this sort of thing. I would gradually introduce a bit of French into every day or most days instead. I am the only Swedish speaker my dcs meet every day, but I do also speak English to them, because there are things we share in English. Hasn't really been a problem and their Swedish (reinforced by books and films and visits to Sweden) is very good. But I could see dd in particular rebelling against the announcement that "today is Thursday so we'll speak Swedish". But then we're not a very routine-driven family.

I agree with cory. I think it would be better to speak French in a specific daily situation with your DD, for example when you pick her up from school and on the way home. Or at suppertime every night.

What an interesting thread. Well done for starting it, ManIFeel! It never occcured to me that someone else might be doing this with their kids.

I speak only my mother tongue (English) fluently, but have reached A-level standard in three other languages. I also love to learn a little of the language of every country I visit before going there. I find it opens doors and enables me to connect beautifully ("...wow! You speak Finnish so well!" - this said after I've said something as complex as 'good morning ).

I put my love of language down to growing in a multi-lingual household (no European languages, though, only African ones which I haven't really learned and also down to learning French in primary schoo. I would love to pass on the same passion for languages to my children, so I have started by teaching DS (age 2.4) little bits of Spanish (my fave lang) in context. At the very least I only expect him to understand, but every now and then he'll come out with a phrase (today he said 'gracias!' - I nearly wept with joy!).

DH is also what I'd call a natural linguist (I say this after 5 yrs' experience as an English teacher) but speaks no language especially well. He's totally in favour of my teaching DS Spanish, though.