At my wits end (sorry, this is really long)

[misshardbroom]

I'm posting this under my regular posting name even though I'm a bit worried that I'm giving so much detail here as to make me instantly recognisable to anyone who knows me in RL.

I have 3 children: DD at school, DS1 is 4 next week and goes to preschool some of the time, otherwise at home with me. DS2 is 2.8 and at home all the time. I'm a SAHM during the week and work at weekends. DH works locally, is heavily involved with the children, very hands-on. Neither of our families live within a 4 hour drive, but despite that they are very much part of our children's lives (lots of phonecalls, emails, photos around the place etc.). I'm lucky enough to have a really strong network of friends. I'm telling you all this part to put it into context - there's no big family stress or trauma other than the normal hassles of getting everyone where they're meant to be, making the money last the month etc.

However, DS1's behaviour is starting to become more and more of a problem for me. He is a bright, sensitive little boy who can play beautifully by himself or with other children, he engages well with stories, his language is really good, and on a good day he's a charm.

But the good days are few and far between. He is constantly uncooperative about even the most simple things
(e.g. ME: 'Come on DS1, put your shoes on and we'll go to the park'
HIM: 'No. I want to go to the park but I don't want to put my shoes on')
This example could go on for half an hour - if I say 'well, no shoes, no park' he will start a horrendous, tearless roaring noise (which honestly is deafening, you can hear it outside the house) which he will keep up ad infinitum. And this happens five or six times a day about different, basic, fundamental things.

There are other things that absolutely have to be done a certain way, e.g. he has to be first out of the bath, he has to be first to the toilet.

Nothing works as a threat, especially as he's physically quite a big boy. For example, if I try any 'time out' type response and put him in his room, he just comes right out again, and he's too big and strong to be manhandled back in there (not that I advocate the manhandling of children anyway).

Like many children he's quite a fussy eater but will start the roaring noise again if he doesn't like what's on his plate, and last night even picked up a fried egg (egg, chips and beans, nutrition watchers) from his plate and threw it onto the table, even though I had said he could just eat the chips and beans.

He has always been a poor sleeper, to the extent that as a toddler, the doctor prescribed a sedative for him (not that it worked). In the last 6 - 12 months I thought he might have grown out of it as he was sleeping through the night, but in the last 6 weeks or so he's back to waking in the night and coming in our bed. Please, please, please don't suggest any sleep training routines for him - I appreciate they work for some families but we honestly have been to hell and back over the last 4 years trying everything on the doctor and HV's recommendation, and it just resulted in the entire family being awake half the night, so now we just accept that we do whatever it takes for at least one of us to get some sleep.

Anyway, last night he came into us at 4am and discovered that DS2 (who has a bad cold) was already in our bed. DS1 kicked off completely, to the degree that he was trying to execute a rugby 'hand-off' style manouvere on the sleeping DS2's face in order to get the space next to me. When we stopped him doing this, he just sat on our bed and started the appalling noise again. Eventually I just took him back to his own bed and stayed with him, but it took until 6am before he went back to sleep for an hour.

I'm so conscious that when his behaviour is grinding me down and he's keeping me up half the night, I end up niggly and only seeing the bad behaviour, so it's a vicious circle.

He's beautifully behaved at preschool. Other than the nighttime thing, this behaviour never ever gets him his own way at home. As anyone with 3 or more will testify, it gets really hard to give each child the time they deserve, but we both make a big point of picking out things they've done well and making a big fuss of them with lots of praise.

It's making me so sad to think of his birthday next week because I remember what a gorgeous baby he was and it breaks me heart. At the moment I love him because he is my boy, not because his behaviour is particularly lovable, and I don't want people to dislike him because of this. Sometimes I think that maybe he's a child who shouldn't have had a younger sibling, but then I feel so disloyal to my lovely DS2 who I wouldn't ever be without.

Please help me come up with some new strategies.

I will watch with interest. MY DD is the same age and is behaving very similarly, the thought of her starting school makes me shudder and various other things....[dread]

What do you do when he makes the roaring noise?

Ignore?
Negotiate?
Leave the room?

Forgive me if I'm completely off the mark here, but does any of this seem familiar to you?

The red herring as far as I can see is that your ds is well behaved at school. Why is that? More structure? Clearer boundaries? Fewer opportunities to be "top dog"?

You say his behaviour doesn't get him his own way during the day but it does. He didn't like the egg so you said he could just eat the chips and beans. He doesn't want to stay in time-out and it doesn't seem (but I may be understanding this wrongly) that you insist that he does. He physically shoves his little brother and makes the noise at night and is rewarded by Mummy spending the rest of the night with him. You say he has to be first out the bath and has to be first to the toilet - do you let him dictate this then, or do you decide what order things can be done in? What about when the other children want to be first? - do they get their turn?

I would echo what littlefish is suggesting - he seems to established himself as the pack leader in your family!

I would have no problem with manhandling a child this age- or indeed much older. Not hitting, not smacking- just putting them firmly in the place where they are meant to be. And whatever you do, don't let him see that you are afraid of him physically and that that leaves him a loophole.

In an emergency I have moved dd physically during a tantrum when she was 9 years old, and she was a big girl. (Dh had more of a problem, as he is more physically timid and afraid of getting hurt.) But obviously, you can only do it if you have control over your own temper. The attitude to work on is "I am big and strong and a responsible adult. I will not see myself beaten by a 4-year-old". But calmly, as calmly as you can.

His attitude will be "you can't make me do things". And yours (though shown in action, not in words) should be "oh yes, I can". It's scary for such a young child to feel noone is in control of him.

It's like a dog. However big and strong it may be, you really can't allow the Great Dane to believe it is in charge because it isn't safe.

This is a tough situation, you must be worn out with the constant battles.

I think, as previous posters have suggested, he considers himself to be in charge - and this is what need to change. You need to set some very firm boundaries an d stick to them. If you have a DP/DH you and they need to discuss how you are going to deal with this together and back each other up.

As Cory says, I would also have no problem picking up a child of this age and calmly taking them back to wherever 'time out' may be.

He is nearly 5 and you have to accept that he is old enough to understand consequence - "If you do not put your shoes on DS we will not go to the park." If this causes roaring then put him in time out, even if you have to hold the door handle from the outside.

He is old enough to understand that roaring/shouting is not a nice thing to do. He may do it because you give him his own way when he does so for peace and quiet, he may do it because he is frustrated and cannot express himself. If he does it he need to go to time out until he stops.

He is also old enough to understand turn taking. Make a rota and laminate it put it up on the bathroom wall. It cannot always be his turn to get out of the bath etc first. He just has to come to terms with this or face the consequences, tantrum etc = no bedtime story.

Perhaps you could go the full Supernanny route and have a list of rules and a reward system.

I think Littlefish may have a valid point, but not necessarily the exact one. You may have to accept that you DS1 may have some form of behavioural issue. But this may not be the case, he may just be seeing how far you will let him go.

It can be very frightening for a child to be in charge, he may be looking for you to take the wheel for him.

How about instead of trying to put him in time out when he kicks off, just get up and walk away. Don't make eye contact, don't talk to him. Totally ignore him and get on with doing something fun with the kids who are being well behaved. He may of course just roar louder but keep up the ignoring. As soon as he stops roaring, immediately give him some positive attention. It will only work if you totally ignore him though. Any small comments, looking at him, looking stressed (and to be frank I wouldn't blame you if you felt like screaming) will probably just give him the feedback he needs that he is pushing your buttons.

You could try having a look at "The incredible years - a troubleshooting guide for parents of children 2 - 8" by Carolyn Webster-Stratton. She's an American psychiatrist that has devised an extremely well respected parenting program that is usually implemented by clinical psychologists. That's not to say I think your ds's behaviour is bad enough to be treated by a psychologist (!), just I think she gives really excellent advice.

Good luck. It sounds bloody hard work.

I have a son who was horrendously hard work from 18 months to at least 6, and still is on occasion now. He is persistent, extremely bright, and definitely wants to be pack leader. He was appallingly behaved at home , but is always perfect at school. At the age of 10 he is much better but still not easy. I think he likes constant stimulation and clear rules and boundaries - much more so than my elder two children did.He is the only one I have smacked out of 4, which I am not proud of. However, what I have found worked more than anything else was loads of positive attention and not getting in the trap of being over harsh with him. I think we got into a vicious circle of over disciplining him - the slightest thing he did and I'd be down on him like a ton of bricks because I was so worried about his behaviour.You have to follow through, but avoid all the recriminations and focusing on the bad behaviour to the exclusion of all else. Probably not making much sense. I know if he is being really bad now, what works best is actually just saying, you know, x is really bad behaviour because... I can't let you behave like that. If you carry on y will happen- and not make y too draconian! Just try to calm down a bit, and at the same time, choose something he loves to do, and make time to do it with him on a daily basis. So for ds2, this has been boring football quizzes, or reading to him every night, or whatever.

For what it's worth, I don't think time out works with children like this. You want to avoid physical battles, holding door knobs or whatever, I think it just escalates the situation and children like this rather like all the vying for pecking order because they are so bloody persistent they know they will probably win!.I am not a big fan of time out/Supernanny techniques generally though, so each to their own.

Re the sleep - he was awful when he was 2-4 ish, but because my eldest ds had been such a poor sleeper, I just used to take him back to bed. It took hours and hours,over many nights, but he did settle on his own eventually.Can you ignore the roaring? It sound like he is super persistent. I think if you have not had a child like this is difficult to appreciate how hard it is, so I am not under estimating it. My eldest ds hardly needed any sleep and at about 4 we just used to put him to bed at 8ish with something to play with and he'd settle at about 10. Could you do this or would he run amok?(My ds2 would have run amok, I'm afraid.)

Sorry for the essay!

Thank you all for your ideas and questions, which have helped me think more about his behaviour and why he does it.

littleshebear - your description of your son sounds exactly like my ds, I could have cried when I read it because I could have written it! And it doesn't surprise me, knowing what this is like at 4, that your ds still tests you in this way on occasion at 10.

Anyway, thank you to all... food for thought.

I should have said - I am really proud of my son and I know you will be of yours too. his negative qualities are also his positive ones - persistence, competitiveness, drive.But when I look back at some of the ways he behaved when he was really little I would never have thought he would turn out so well - so hang in there.

The fact that you say he is perfectly behaved at school tells me there is nothing wrong with your little boy. Much of what you say reminds me of my DS1 at 4 years old. (He's 13 now).
When he started school we entered the worst period of behaviour I have ever encountered before or since. He had screaming tantrums daily, and a 4 year old tantrum is much more professional than a 2 year olds! His behaviour at school though was immaculate
He too was a poor sleeper from birth and we tried everything but ended up with him in my bed most nights. We decided not to even oppose this as we all needed sleep.
On reflection I believe it was starting school that triggered the screaming problem. He loved school , was excited about everything about it and learned quickly. But he was physically and mentally exhausted by it .
I can't offer easy answers except to say that we brought bedtime forward to 6.15pm and this did make a difference.
I never gave in to his tantrums and had a list of priviledges which he lost one by one almost every day.
But it was a phase and he grew out of it and from then on has been a delightful well behaved child in every way.
So hang in there!