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Parenting

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Original poster

What do you think?

19 replies

happychappy · 01/01/2009 19:52

My 6 year is having trouble learning to read and write in Italian. I don't do anything with him in English at the moment. I have been waiting for him to be confident in the abient language before moving on. Last week he went to a specialist who said he's having confusion because of his bilingualism. The school system here is not patient and want to fail him the year.

A friend made a suggestion and I wanted to know what you all thought. The suggestion is to start him with English. Her theory is that perhaps he need to learn how to read and write in his first language (english) before he can move onto a second.

WHat do you all think. All comments welcome.

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CoteDAzur · 01/01/2009 20:02

I would think that would confuse him even more. Reading in Italian is much easier than reading in English and phonetics are very different.

He does speak Italian, right?

Rosa · 01/01/2009 20:10

Happy a friend had exactly the same problem with her dd when she started the equivalent of primary in Italy - She found that there was no assistance or back up with her dd who was falling behind and she suspended teaching her written english until she caught up in Italian - Mind you at the same time she took some outside helo to help her dd with teh Italian as her dh did not have the time to help and she is English and so was worried she could not help. Her dd is doing better - however another American friend ignored the advice to suspend English and persevered with both. her ds now 9 is doing fine but i know it was hard .

ManIFeelLikeAWoman · 01/01/2009 21:52

In what way is this "specialist" a specialist? Is he/she a specialist in writing or in bilingualism? If it's only one of the tow, then surely that's all he should be commenting on?

I think you should read books written by experts on bilingualism or at least parents who have themselves brought up bilingual children and be guided by them.

Worth subscribing to Bilingual Family Newsletter too, as much for moral support as anything.

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ManIFeelLikeAWoman · 01/01/2009 21:54

I think, though, that the main view is that you start reading/writing with the stronger language unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. But do check that - I'm no expert ...

moondog · 01/01/2009 21:55

What specialist?
I'm a biligual salt and it is common for it all to come together more slowly.

The most effective way to get his english up and running would be to follow a proper phonics based programme. You will not get better than the online Headsprout which is the subject of my MSc and which I have done mysekf with my own bilingual dd.

Shitemum · 01/01/2009 21:56

Happy - do you mean you only speak to him in Italian at the moment and are planning to switch to English once his Italian has improved?

MmeJaffaB · 01/01/2009 22:10

Ds is 6, has been at a French school since he was 2.5. his "school" french appears to be on par with his peers, although I suspect his vocab is less. This yr (cp) is THE big yr for learning to read and write. The French system is fast and hard too. English is his first spoken language but French will be without doubt his first written language.

I would worry that trying to teach him to read another way now may confuse him more. Ds is learning the "sounds". obviously the phonics of groups of letters are not the same in the two languages.

Moondog, at what stage is it suggested to bring in the second language?

HappyChappy, how do you feel about him re-doing a year? I'm quite expecting my ds to need to at somepoint, it's not unusual here for even a French child to need to double a year.

moondog · 01/01/2009 22:12

Jaffa, what, as an orthographic system?
No hard and fast rules.
Depends on kid and circumstances but from my own experience, I wanted my child to establish reading and writing in home language beforem oving onto English which I did with the aid of the wonderful headsprout.

MmeJaffaB · 01/01/2009 22:22

Thanks Moondog, thats what we were planning too. The last thing I want is to either confuse him or bombard him with reading and then find he's not enjoying it.
I'll have a good look at Headsprout.

andanotherdooropens · 01/01/2009 22:29

Hi,

Got a similar situation here in Spain with DS1 - also 6. He is really struggling with reading. We read all books that come home - and some of them are in Galician but, oddly enough that is good for his confidence because he has a better grasp of that than me.

Although, we read some books and comics in Spanish, I'm following another MN recommended book "The Reading Reflex" with him and he is improving, but is definitely behind the majority of his classmates. I worry about his self-confidence and esteem but still push the English and will fight his corner to stay with his cohort.

On the bright side, he loves being read to - another Captain Underpants was devoured in two sessions. I am being hopeful that it is just a question of it taking longer than he, I or the system (pretty inflexible) would like but that in the long-term he will love reading.

Original poster

happychappy · 02/01/2009 13:41

Our main language is English. We all speak Italian but DS is 50/50. He doesn't realy have a stronger language. He's been speaking both for 4 years and is only 1 month short of 7. The specialist was an educational phycologist. This was her assessent.

I know that generally with bilingual children the reading and writing does come a little later and a little slower but I cant get the school to understand this and they are putting so much pressure on him. Because he passed the 1st year they won't allow him to go back to the that level. All other subjects he is perfectly fine just the reading and writing. Obviously this is now starting to affect the other subjects.

We do read to him but generally in English because I still have trouble with readin Italian.

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andanotherdooropens · 02/01/2009 17:24

Yes, but it was an Italian psychologist - right? - and they probably think they are doing him a favour. Is he a young seven?
You know him best - will being allowed to relax and assimilate at his own pace be better for him or would dropping back a year be awful?

It is the norm here to put all foreign children in a year below their age, if they aren't bilingual or have no Galician, come secondary. DS2 is repeating a year - at the grand old age of 5 - but that is because he has a speech and language disorder and there was a better "fit" between him and the rising-fives rather than the rising-sixes. Added to that in the younger group, he is one of ten; where as the older group is twice the size. It all seems to make a difference.

Stand your ground if you think they are wrong. I know with DS1 that we may face this question again at the end of the year but I will be going with the line that he is fine in certain subjects: Maths and English (obviously, except he got a bare pass this Christmas - ) and he is happy with his group.

Another thought, is your DS one of the youngest in his year? DS2 was before staying with the 4/5s and I think that being the eldest has helped him loads.

frannikin · 02/01/2009 19:37

Is it the writing motion that he has problems with or being able to spell words? I ask because I know someone whose DD had problems reading and writing in the English system but their home language was Polish, it was blamed on bilingualism but actually she had some kind of co-ordination problem which made writing hard. So if it's the writing motion then it's got absolutely nothing at all to do with bilingualism.

The fact that your DS is 50/50 is brilliant. He will grow up to be a truly balanced bilingual.

In regards to the original question I wouldn't start him on English because it may confuse him, increase the amount of time he spends practising fine motor skills and writing motions and read more in Italian although you've said you find it difficult, but even simple books will help, especially the ones aimed for at toddlers where he can read WITH you. Also try getting audio-books with a printed version that you can both listen to and follow along.

Original poster

happychappy · 03/01/2009 17:05

He cant drop back till next September so they will keep pushing until the end of the year. I have asked alreay to change his year group. I agree about the phychologist, we live in a it of a backwater and I think that perhaps her information and knowledge isn't the most uptodate. Hense asking the question here.

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andanotherdooropens · 03/01/2009 17:42

So, between now and then, it may just click into place. That is how I understand it - suddenly, reading makes sense and it goes from being an incredible foreign language to a piece of cake .

Just keep doing what you are doing now, reading with him, supporting him and hopefully, we will both have literate boys by summer!

Original poster

happychappy · 04/01/2009 11:59

Lets hope

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vesela · 10/01/2009 11:06

I find it totally bizarre that this goes on in the EU (pressure on children to fail years, keeping 'foreign children' a year below their peers etc.) The EU is supposed to be trying to make it easy for families to move around.

Here in the Czech Republic, I think children of citizens from other EU countries can be let off bad marks in Czech - i.e. it wouldn't cause them to fail the year. I'm not sure if that's only in the first year, though.

Stand your ground with the school (does anyone know in detail what the EU law is on this, re. discrimination against native speakers of other EU languages?) and good luck.

Original poster

happychappy · 17/01/2009 19:10

bump, anyone?

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morningsun · 18/01/2009 23:42

Hi happychappy,sort of similar thing with my ds just 7 in yr 2.
We are english speaking at home[i understand basic welsh and can decipher reading books]
My ds is in the welsh medium in school,learning to read and write only in welsh,[obviously the phonetics is different,esp the vowels].
I taught him to read in english myself at home with reading scheme and phonics system.
I had to explain what the differences were,and do catch up with english in the holidays,then towards end of holidays revert to welsh again.Now,i can do them in parallel becos his welsh is well developed and he can read both languages well.
The benefit here is that the teachers are accustomed to teaching welsh to children who are 1st language english,they use bits of verbal english at times esp in yr 1,and build it up.

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