Role models

[Jraven]

What does everyone think of the spice girls as role models. Apparently over half of 8 year old girls aspire to be Victoria Beckham. My niece is definitely one of them and is starting to worry about her weight! Is this a worry or only to be expected? What if anything can you do about it?

Jraven, I took a deep, deep breath having read your post. I loathe the Spice Girls phenomenon and the effect their existance seems to have spawned throughout popular culture, particularly on little girls, hence the new (in my humble opinion) hideous creation of "tweenagers" (little girls obsessed with makeup/clothes/boys/popgroups and very little else). Thank goodness my eleven year old seems to have just missed this latest gimmick in marketing.

However, I digress, as I said, I loathe the packaged stereotyped presentation of the Spice Girls (and such like)and the images they project of women and for sometime battled against it. They were at the height of their success when my daughter was eight and however much one tried one could not avoid them. Eventually I relaxed about it rationalising that my daughter has a very balanced up bringing was very aware of the Spice Girls marketed image and despite them being everywhere she did always have my constant refrain expressing a different perspective!

No one was more surprised to find themselves at one of their concerts than me. It was an excrutiating experience but it was the only time I have ever indulged my daughter and given in to something I really, really objected to. (Largely because I felt that it was good for both of us to take on board the fact that we are different people who often like diffent things and besides, how can I preach tolerance if I am not prepared to show tolerance?)

I do think that an eight year old worrying about her weight is alarming and it seems that this age group is being targeted more and more by magazines, tv, pop groups etc., to look and be a certain way. In fact I find the whole thing quite horrendous. However, now eleven my daughter grew out of the Spice Girls some time ago, and she now considers them as being slightly ridiculous. Perhaps this is widespread as their last album was a complete flop(?)... I think the only thing that you can do for your niece is give her a healthy, broader perspective on the whole issue. Force feeding her a counter opinion will not help (she will inevitably rebel against it). Healthy discussion and the daily awareness that those she looks up to (such as yourself) are not obsessed with the things that the spice girls (and many others) appear to stand for, is the best, and most unconscious, education she can have. Good luck...

I don't think I've been as thin as Victoria Beckham since I was at primary school!. No being serious though, there is to much emphasis on being thin, many people are naturally thin, and many are like myself and Garfield big boned!. I have 2 nieces one is 14 and the other is 16, youngest is a size 10 and the eldest is a size 16. The oldest is constantly trying to lose weight, now she is fit and healthy and could run for Scotland, but she is not like her friends she says. I have lost weight myself this past while, and there are some weeks that I lose only 1 or 2lbs, but I am very concerned about young girls who aspire to be like some other famous people. One thing that does annoy me intensely is the fact that some people think that because I and my worse half are not thin that our children would be huge as well, they aren't they are both the correct weight for their height, also children change as they get older. Many children can be a bit podgy at school and as they get older in their teenage years they grow and lose the extra weight. I do think that Victoria Beckham is to thin, she looked far better when the Spice Girls started out, media pressure is also one of the main thorns in my flesh, as they are the first to publish pictures or television coverage if someone gains as much as half a stone. Now where did I leave my chocolate eclair ............

I loathe the Spice Girls and particularly, their so called "Girl Power". As far as I can see, they stand for nothing of the sort and I can't see what possible good influence they have on young girls.

There must be role models for little girls other than the Spice Girls, although off the top of my head I'm struggling to think who. I remember wanting to be Kim Wilde & Madonna (spot the 80s girl) as a teenager but given that my mother only bought me shoes in Clarkes and that I was rather tubby with short hair that was a bit like wishing to marry John Taylor from Duran Duran!!!
On the positive side, Victoria Beckham has had a very successful career and married well - if you think that money & looks (I know debatable) are important. It would seem that she & David are very much "in lurve" too, so I can see that for romantic little girls she could be a bit of a heroine.
However, the weight thing is a real problem but I don't think that it is just Victoria Beckham who is to blame here. I think that we all need to take a look at ourselves about the weight thing. How many of us diet? Loads I bet. Well our daughters will watch us and think that they should too. It is all very well everyone blaming the media but nearly all of us conspire to keep the "thin is best" goal in sight.

I've got nothing against the spice girls but I'd be horrified if my daughter wanted to dress like them or start dieting aged 8! Wasn't it awful being a teenager in the late 80s, pinstriped suits and Madonna was the only rebel around!! I'm with Bugsy on this one; how our daughters see us behaving re diets, self image etc is the most important thing.

Just try and ensure her life contains plenty of counterbalance to the pre-teen media nightmare. What do her parents think? Does she have other interests as well (ponies, piano, saving the dolphins, ballet) which might get her out of the house and away from the telly and computer? Does her family manage to find time to sit down together to properly cooked food - a tall order these days, I know? I don't think you can cut any child off from these pressures without making their lives a misery at school, but if you are concerned about the values they represent, I guess you can try and offer different diversions. I think Winnie expressed what I'm trying to say well. And Winnie, you may have got off lightly. When I was at college my flatmate had to escort her little sister and three friends from Lichfield, on public transport, to the NEC to a Culture Club concert. All four little girls were dressed as Boy George...she said it was the most humiliating night of her life. At least she enjoyed the concert though.

They were good role models, but now especially Victoria Adams they aren't. All that stuff about women being independent was just a load of bull. I like Mel C though, she is still a good role model.

Madonna isn't a good role model these days either.

Anyone seen Angelica who presents the kids programmes on BBC 1. I think she's a fantastic role model for young girls. Funny, clever, not too thin etc etc. Also Kate thingy who presents Newsround. Same reasons. Also Michaela Strachan...same reasons.
Oh dear....just realised this message makes it seem that all I ever do is watch kids tv!!

I think that kids are often more sophisticated when it come to marketing than we give them credit. In what way do these 8 yr olds want to be like Victoria? Do they want a 'fit' man, lovely baby, a top job, nice clothes and pots of cash? Why not? We all have to dream.
As for the 'thin' thing, a pet subject of mine. I certainly don't put the all blame on the media. Bugsy is right, too many parents, in particular Mum's I'm afraid, make a big thing about dieting or eating 'naughty' foods. My mother seems to have been on a permanent diet for the past 25 yrs. You just have to look at some of the other noticeboards on allsorts of diets. The children (boys are affected too) need to see their parents eating healthily and taking exercise! It's hard I know.

Batters I agree it is awful to see children singing very adult songs. I remember seeing a tiny tot singing 'sex on the beach' years ago.

Barbie has a own special appeal, I think it is that bright pink. It appears that little girls, no matter what you do, love pink sparkley things they don't care that she is totally out of proportion.

Jbr, why do you say Madonna isn't a good role model these days? Surely she was a worse one in the late 80s!?

Re Barbie, If you go to a big toy warehouse and look at all the Barbie clothes on display it's quite shocking - have a look at her tarty undies for a start!!

I must admit that Rugrats is a particular hate of mine - it's one of the few children's programs that I switch off, (not that I'm around very often to monitor my children's viewing). I just can't stand the meanness of those kids, and I don't find it remotely funny. It seems to celebrate all that's worst about squabbling children and bossy older sisters, and that's not how I want my children to grow up.

Sml from your last comment I take it you don't watch 'the weakest link' then (awful isn't it!).

Reading this board means i will dare speak my view about diets, in anonymity.... yup, they are demening and in fact they bring out the worst in otherwise intelligent women. I hate the one-upmanship girls/ women get from it. Like ooh I lost 2 lb yesterday on this diet and have you seen this one, and I have stopped eating completely and it still hasn't gone - I must have a hormone imbalance, its not my fault ahhhhh!

Diets are like a fashion, and for as long as I can remember I've felt out of it. If I say that losing weight is bloody obvious, you cut down on eating crap and you do light exercise, my friends say but its ok for you you're thin! but that's the point isn't it, that's why I'm thin, the formula is too obvious isn't it. Instead women rush to buy books with magic potions and spells to make them lose weight without compromising their lifestyle in anyway. If you like food and don't give a fig for what anyone says then that's the way to be - stop pretending its otherwise!!!!!!

Lil, no I don't watch the weakest link, have obviously missed something here? Anyway, I wouldn't watch it now, I think Anne Robinson should have faced more reprisals over her foolish comments about the Welsh people - that's the same person isn't it? (you can see how up I am with celebrities and TV at the moment!)

I totally agree with you about most diets, though I must say that I lost a stone without even trying, when I gave up eating meat. I put it back on when I started eating meat again! I assume this was because of the same principal of not mixing protein and carbohydrates as the Atkins diet. I am not stick thin, but there are plenty of clothes I FEEL good in, so I'm not that bothered. Anyway, after being hugely pregnant I still feel like a stick insect even though my clothes tell me I'm size 16!

That's the whole point, SML, it should be whether you feel good about yourself regardless of size.

Lil, whilst I agree with you about dieting fashion, it's a willpower thing isn't it? Yes it is obvious how you lose weight but I think people go on 'special' diets to make it more interesting.

Sml,

Interesting what you were saying about feeling like a stick insect after being hugely pregnant. I dropped a couple of stone after having my last child (a combination of breast feeding and exercise) and am now a size 14. I'm heavier than I should be for my height, and heavier than I was before the kids, but I feel fit and attractive, and I'm happier and more comfortable with my body now than I think I've ever been since childhood. I'm sure it's a combination of not being pregnant any more, and knowing that my body has done and is doing a good job.

On the role models for girls (and boys) thing - I'm sure that what we ourselves present as normal behaviour to our daughters must have some influence. I know that my mother was always dieting, and I grew up thinking that this was the norm. So I'm now making a conscious effort to show my kids that healthy eating and taking exercise are a normal part of everyday life. It's made me examine my habits more closely too - I was horrified to discover how often I used food (usually chocolate) as a reward or bribe for good behaviour, just as my mother did with me.

All my friends are obsessed with diets and they are all skinny. I'm the only one who's remotely porky and I couldn't care less. Their life is made up of missed meals and oh sorry i can't have a biscuit. It wears me down.

One friend in particulary has an 9 year old daughter who she is worried about becanse she does not eat enough. At 9 she can look at her mother trying to shed that last half stone and getting depressed because it won't go - of course she won't eat look at her role model.

I am told how lucky I am because my little boy eats well - but so does everyone else in the house.

I rather be fat, but fit, and happy than skinny and miserable. Lil your right about diets.

Hi everyone, I have to say I think women can be gorgeous whatever size they are it is how they feel about themselves and how they project that that is attractive not what size clothes they wear. I am a size 18 (on a good day) and I am fit and healthy. I have an active lifestyle which involves the whole family and we eat good, healthy food. We all enjoy our food and whilst my weight yo-yo'd for many years as a consequence, I hate to admit, of my mother's dissapproval, my weight has completely stabilised (other than when pregnant - obviously), since I stopped being so hung up about it. Sorting my own head out about food was partly to do with having a daughter myself. I really don't want her to have a negative body image. So far, so good. In fact she often comes home from school with horrified tales of friends who are dieting at the age of eleven!

Returning to the issue of role models I asked my daughter who her role models are and her seemingly endless but interesting list included Kate Howey (judo olympic silver medalist - my daughter loves judo), J K Rowling, Madonna, Kate Winslet, Geri Halliwell, her class teacher, her gran and various friends of mine who are all shapes and sizes, and all women endeavouring to do their own thing, often in difficult circumstances...

Atkins diet!! I assume Mr/Ms Atkins is making a fortune out of some very unhappy people. What's wrong with healthy eating? Sml you probably lost weigh as veggies are often more careful with what they eat than others as they know they need a balanced diet. Also you may well have taken in different types/amounts of fats.

The need to be 'in control of something' is a reason given by the many highly intelligent sufferers of eating disorders. Perhaps the the stress of over testing at a youg age is a factor.

Madonna was strong and independent and now what is she doing? Making it look like to be a complete woman you need children and a partner - that you are married to! And Guy Ritchie allegedly won't do anything around the house!

She was a great role model in the 80's but got a bit dodgy towards the early 90's! What on earth was that "Sex" book about?! Well I know what it was about but WHY? Apart from the make money of course!

I'm just looking back at some of the messages about The Spice Girls and am amazed at the negativity towards them. Alright, Posh and Geri are now looking a bit thin and tucked (and I'm sure Posh has had a boob job...but look at them when they started out - they were superb role models. The brilliant thing about them was that they weren't beautiful or perfect images of femininity but spotty and a bit flabby here and there; The reason they were so big is that they were normal girls - something teenage girls could really aspire to because it could be them. Alright the term 'Girl Power' may have been meaningless hype but their point was that they did get what they wanted in a tough industry and this was brought about by themselves and through sheer determination and hard work. Apart from all this, I think they were a great laugh to watch with fantastic costumes and really good tunes! They really shouldn't be taken too seriously. Popular culture has had its effect on 8 year old girls long before the Spice Girls - I was obsessed with Donny Osmond, wore a tartan scarf around my wrist and new all the dance steps to 'Save all your kisses for me' when I was 8 - I do think that's part of what being 8 is about.

Kate71, what do you mean by over testing as a possible factor for eating disorders?

Kate71, I can assure you that I wasn't a lentil soup vegetarian, in fact my diet always included lots of cakes and other fattening stuff! I just lost interest in eating meat. Actually it is not just Atkins, I have heard this theory for many years that if you don't mix protein and carbohydrates you lose weight. Weight loss was the last thing on my mind at that time though.

Jbr, hang on a second! Madonna was on her own when she was young and working hard to establish her career. Now she's a bit more mature, she wants a permanent partnership with a man that she loves and children. That seems very positive to me! I think it would be a bit sad if she tried to hang on to her independent youth until she was an old age pensioner! I've always thought Madonna was a great role model in what she does for herself and her family, but not in what she says in her songs - some of them are really dodgy, and very irresponsible advice to impressionable teenage girls. And like you, I couldn't relate to the stuff she did in the early 90s.

What about rap stars - anyone suffered Eminem in the house. Would you ban it, it's pretty awful stuff? On the other hand, wouldn't it be a bit odd if kids showed no sighn of any rebellion? If they don't believe in anarchy as teenagers when are they going to. I always feel a bit sad seeing young conservatives in action, when do they do their rebelling? Don't think I could cope with Tory boy in my house.