Am I being cruel in my use of the naughty-step and in my ignoring of DD?

[artichokes]

DD is 2.3. She is affectionate, bright and lovely and most of the time we have a great time together. However she is also incredibly bossy and stubborn (her nanny says she has never seen such a bossy toddler, despite 30 years in the trade). If she does something wrong and I tell her off she says things like "shut-up mummy", "be quiet and just keep talking to daddy" or "its not naughty, its clever".

When she won't do as she is told, or does something very naughty, I find telling her off makes her continue with the behaviour in a more determined fashion. Often I end up putting her in the hallway on the bottom step and closing all the doors and saying "You can come back in when you do X/say sorry". When I do this she gets very upset, screams and cries, but within a minute always comes and says sorry. Another technique that works is to say "I am going to ignore you until you say sorry" and then refuse even to give eye contact. This also upsets her greatly and she sobs and sobs and then apologises/stops.

I feel awful that these techniques make her so distressed, but they are the only things that get through to her.

Is it too much to treat a 2.3 year old like this or is it just effective parenting?

Hmmm... I think 2.3 is too young. You are possibly expecting too much of her, and what is the point of "sorry" if she is only saying it so mummy will stop ignoring her?

I think ignoring is probably the best technique for her at the moment - she is looking for a response and any response is better for her then none.

Can you give an example of some of her very naughty behaviour?

I don't think it is cruel.
My ds is the same age and we have put him in the other room fo ra very short time when he won't stop hitting us.
He knows hitting is wrong and does it to get a reaction, mainly from his Dad.
We try to divert him, then warn him twice, third time he goes.
He doesn't get upset, but he does stop after he has apologised and we have had a nice cuddle.

I don't know if I would make her sit until she apologizes. I think I would select an amount of time she has to sit and then she has to apologize. The rule of thumb I have heard for 'time outs' is 1 minute for every year of age. So I think I'd make her sit by herself for 2 minutes. Use a kitchen timer.

Some examples from today:

1. DD refused to put her shoes on. No amount of talking and tempting her with a nice day out would help. When I picked her up to put them on she screamed and kicked until I had to let go. I put her on the naughty step. She hated it and cried but within 45 seconds had apologised and was sitting on my lap letting me put her shoes on (while sobbing quietly ).

2. DD keeps saying "fucking hell". We have no idea where she learnt it from as neither DH or I swear. We have explained it is rude, bad, naughty etc. She just retorts "its not naughty, its funny!". We tried ignoring it altogether but she has carried on using it. Today when she used it I said "That is a very naughty word, say sorry for using it and promise not to use it again". She said "won't promise, not saying sorry". So I said "I am going to ignore you totally until you say sorry and apologise". I ignored her. She screamed and cried. Within a minute she apologised and has not used the words again (although tomorrow is another day...).

Do you think these were fair reactions from me?

sounds fair to me, and sounds like she understands what is going on..

Sounds perfect I wish I had my 3 year old under my control like this we try using the naughty room but also have smacked which i feel is much worse and doesn't work.

It's working so what's the problem. We started with time out at about 18 months for DS2 when he started hitting people. It has worked really well as he can't stand being excluded or ignored. He loves drama and attention somHe is now 4 and we don't really need to use it anymore (just the threat works) and his good behaviour does get commented on (and he is what I could euphemistically call 'spirited'!!).

I think ignoring is extremely effective - much more so than shouting and getting angry.

So, if its working, and you are staying calm, then seems to me you are doing a good job.

I guess the reason I am concerned is that:

(a) it really upsets her. even when she apologises she often sobs quietly for a few more minutes. often i hear her telling her toys she will ignore them or put them on the naughty step. sometimes when i put her to bed and ask her what she did today all she remembers is going on the naughty step - its obviously right at the front of her mind alot of the time;

(b) it works but not long term. So today it worked to get her to put her shoes on. But tomorrow I can guarantee she will refuse to put her shoes on and we will go through it all again.

But maybe this is just life with a 2 year old. That is what I am trying to work out.

ummm, yep. pretty much life with a 2 year old

What are the alternatives? Bribery? Shouting? We all need a solution to being heard by our children, and ignoring might be it.

My DS learnt very quickly to say sorry, that it got him out of trouble but didn't feel remorse or understand his actions. Your DD must have a grasp of it if she is using it in play.

Honestly, it takes a lot to continuously ignore and not snap and shout. If you can do it and stay in control, I honestly believe its a good thing and not cruel in any way.

So stop beating yourself up!

artichokes, it does seem to be normal to have to do the same thing 1000 times before a toodler 'gets' it.
She is constantly testing the boundaries to see what si / isn't acceptable. By being consistent, you are being fair to her.
Her distress is unpleasant, but toddlers do feel things very intensely. They live only in teh moment, feeling everything 100 %.
I honestly do not think you are being unfair to her at all.
Recounting it to you at night does not mean she is traumatised - rather that it has significance to her. She knows it is a punishment and is taking it seriously.

I think that sounds fair. I am currently having to ignore ds when he hits people - taking him away from the situation, telling him no, and then ignoring the tantrum that ensues, accompanied with headbanging. It takes him a minute or so to get over it, but he watches to see if we are still paying him attention, and if we are then he keeps screaming.

Ignoring can be very effective at that age and it means that you're staying in control.

Artichokes, my DS1 was/is very challenging behaviourly (naughty as they get) and I learnt from lots of hard experience that at that age the more I told him off/time out/ the naughtier he became. He used to wait till his dad came home and told him all about how naughty he was, and if later I praised him he would say no but I am naughty.

I eventually on a friends advice (as I couldnt see the woods for the trees) I stopped telling him off at all, just said very quitely 'that's not nice, your hurting...if you do that again, You will lose your toy/tv off whatever'

and then would give him stickers for being good for every 10 minutes that he was good (then every half hour... to about 3 a day at flash points).

with the swearing - we just ignore it because unless they hear it again they will repeat it.

And remember that she is very very young she's only two and you are proabably expecting way too much of her, I look back and wish I realised that with mine when he was that age (and probably will now).

good luck

Ooh - yes stickers were and still are very effective for dd who was and still can be very stubborn.

Maybe have a think about what situations you are using the naughty step and which ones are appropriate.

I'm not sure if putting her on the step for not putting her shoes on is entirely appropriate - I know that getting out of the house can sometimes take forever, but if it was a point today then maybe try and get her shoes on as part of getting dressed so you don't have the same flashpoint tomorrow iyswim?

Just ignore the bad language - she's too young to know what it means and will hopefully soon forget about it.

There also will come a time where the naughty step doesn't work so be prepared for having to develop another strategy in about 6 months time.