Teaching babies languages

[babyignoramus]

My first DC is due in Feb and I've been thinking about teaching he/she a language. I have been teaching myself German for a couple of years and have also recently been revising my school French. I am fairly comfortable with pronunciation in both languages, but still need to look up some words (esp. with regards to gender, and German cases). Has anyone taught a baby a language successfully without being fluent in it themselves? And any tips on the best way to go about it? Currently I am thinking it would be best to have some picture books in the language and have a story time each day where that's all I speak...? Does this sound feasible??

Advice would be much appreciated!

Nooooo.

Unless you're fluent (as in practiclly bilingual) and have a minimal accent don't go there. You should ideally be mother tongue a language before teaching it to your DC, brushing up your school French is not really going to be much use in the long run.

That said, there is absolutely no harm (and a lot of good) in exposing babies to music and nursery rhymes in a foreign language or two. Can you not buy some CDs/DVDs in either french or German? How about a French or german nanny/au pair? Or even language playgroups when he/she is older?

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh but I find it tiring enough speaking to my DD in my mother tongue all day every day and I imagine I'd find it 100x more tiring speaking in a language that didn't come naturally to me. Also, you do have to be consistent and really quite dedicated. It's no easy task talking to yourself for months on end.

I was just thinking that the OP may have more on her plate come Feb than teaching her newborn a second language

I am sure she didn't mean it to but it sounds as if the little one is going to be learning a language from day!It reminds me of myself pre dc1 thinking that I would have tons of time to complete my postgrad course because babies didn't do much but feed and sleep I didn't factor in sleepless nights and reflux and taking 3 hours to do the simplest task!

I am very of bilingualism actually Brangelina (Are we related??lol)

OP as a serious answer to your Q I am sure Brangelina is right.Come the age of 3 or 4 there are mini language classes for tots,I have seen them advertised.You could always consider doing a baby signing course for your little one when they are a 6-8 months or so.Signing often comes before verbal language and can be a useful adjunct to communication.Good luck

Lol, are you my doppelganger? (now that's a nice German word).

I believed I would be taking up painting again, what with all the free time and blissfully sleeping baby. Sadly, it wasn't long before I discovered that the only creative feat I'd manage was finding novels ways of not droppingholding the baby when I went for a wee .

Yes,I could have won an Olympic Gold in Eating Cold Food With One Hand Whilst Juggling screeching banshee Gorgeous Baby With The Other

Baby Ig, you can do no harm in trying at all.
I would practise yourself with him/her counting rhyming etc. My dc can say a fair bit in other languages. (foreign swear words especially as I think 'oh, they won't understand that'...!!)
For us, music is the key. Simple songs and having a go.

Brangelina on Mon 22-Sep-08 23:39:49
"Nooooo.

Unless you're fluent (as in practiclly bilingual) and have a minimal accent don't go there. You should ideally be mother tongue a language before teaching it to your DC, brushing up your school French is not really going to be much use in the long run."

I think maybe this is too harsh. It suggests that knowing nothing of a language is preferable to learning it with a slight foreign accent. In which case all foreign language lessons at school should be abolished straight away, shouldn't they? After all, most teenagers are likely to retain a slight accent.

To me, knowing a bit of a language is better than knowing nothing. My Swedish mother started giving me English lessons out of Ladybird books when I was 6; I was about 10 the first time I got to speak to an English person- I have since got to a level of proficiency where I am not only writing my own academic books/articles in English and lecturing at an English university, but have also been employed as a proof reader of English texts by a well know scholarly publishing firm. Do you really suppose I believe I would be better off without knowing any of that English? Fgs I couldn't go on Mumsnet then, could I?

I now consider myself bilingual, as does everyone around me- I certainly wasn't when I was 7. My mother also taught me German. I am by no means fluent in German and would certainly not consider myself trilingual, but I can still get enjoyment out of a German novel or song- and that too is worth having.

Having said that, I don't think there is any need for going OPOL with your newborn baby in this particular case. Frankly, unless you have a close emotional relationship with German or French, I don't think you're going to enjoy speaking to your new lo in a language not your own. Bonding is more important than bilingualism at this stage,

Can I suggest a modification? If your child seems bright and interested, why not start teaching him or her a few phrases as a toddler? All right, so he/she may not become fully bilingual, but it's still better than nothing. And if an interest grows, you can get far. Even if it's only supporting him/her at GCSE level, that is more than his mates will be getting.

OP, I am fluent in a few languages and had all the best intentions of trying to teach DCs from early on. However, babies don't really respond much, so I read some stories in foreign languages to them adn played some CDs and that worked well. Mainly though I carried on playing Spanish music in the car and now DC (5) sings along quite happily but probably with no little understanding of what it is he is singing. DS also has picked Spanish up but mainly through school and is doing well.

I think books and CDs are a good start and beyond that, I would wait and see how they turn out. They have plenty of time to get to grips with a language.

I agree that bonding in the early months and years (by talking in a natural way to your baby in your mother tongue) is far more important.

But that doesn't exclude familiarising your child with a foreign language via DVDs, nursery rhymes and story books, as Brangelina says, just don't expect pre-school fluency!

Cory, I agree I was a bit harsh, I mentioned it in a later post, and I certainly agree some exposure is better than none. In fact, I suggested getting hold of Cds and DVDs in foreign languages.

However, I have also seen the results of teaching bad grammar to a child. There is a mum here who screeches at talks to her child in an appalling, grammatically-incorrect, heavily-accented (as in often totally mispronounced) English and her 7yo has picked up every one of her faults. Also, said child doesn't understand English when spoken to him by a native speaker (not just me), so the utility of a second language is somewhat limited. My offer of DVDs was refused as apparently he doesn't understand English TV.

I think if the OP is serious in her intent she should back up her input with further exposure to the language where she is certain that the pronounciation and grammar will be correct. After all, mfl teaching in schools is supported by listeniing comprehensions and the like from native speakers, is it not? Or have things changed since my time? Reading a story a day is all very well but not really going far enough in developing the child's knowledge in the language.

I know it worked for you but we must also bear in mind that subsequent language teaching is far better in Sweden than in the UK. Also, don't you guys start at primary school age?

I also learnt French from the occasional story being read to me by a French person, but this was backed up a year or so later by me learning it in primary school (I was not in the UK at the time - when I did arrive in the UK the teaching was so uninspiring and everyone was so behind that I got bored and almost gave it up, but that's an aside....)

Am totally no expert here, but I have read that it isn't possible (vaguely dabbled with the idea myself). In order to help children learn their first language, adults instinctively adopt the "parentese" voice and intonation - it makes sounds easier to hear and copy for a little one. It comes naturally in a language you've learnt as a child ("mother tongue") but not at all naturally in a foreign language. Lack of "parentese" intonation can make it incredibly hard for a child to learn the speech sounds. So it's not really feasible to give a child a "mother tongue" language you don't have yourself.

You can of course, give children lessons in a language that isn't your own mother tongue, but they need to be secure in their mother tongue(s) first and a fair bit older.

Agree with mrsboring and Brangelina...
I was asked to give English lessons to an 18mth old last year and despite trying to tell the mother I didn't think it was possible until the child had more hardwiring of her own language, she insisted. (and who am I to turn good money down?) I played with the child in English- and while eventually the child would count with me in English or point to things "dolly" "teddy" that was as far as it went. OK, she might grow up pronouncing "teddy" with a beautiful English accent, but what has she really achieved? This year I've been asked to do some mini-language projects at dd's nursery- but the children there (aged 3-6) already obviously have their mother tongue hardwired, so it becomes so much easier....

mrsgboring on Tue 23-Sep-08 10:32:43
"Am totally no expert here, but I have read that it isn't possible"

Strangely enough, one of the best known books about bilingualism is by an English speaker (Saunders, I think) who taught his children German using the OPOL method. They became fully bilingual and used German as their private family language. Modern Hebrew was revived by a man who insisted on speaking it with his son though nobody had spoken it for millennia. Not that I'm recommending it, but if you're pigheaded enough it can be done.

Brangelina on Tue 23-Sep-08 10:19:55
"However, I have also seen the results of teaching bad grammar to a child."

Brangelina, we don't actually know that the OP's grammar is incorrect. She may be good at it. Just because somebody you know speaks appalling English doesn't mean we all do.

As for Swedish teaching, yes they start towards the end of primary school- but then primary school starts later, so they're actually the same age (10/11) as English children are when they start French. Though Swedish schools use tapes and films, it is extremely rare for them to employ a native speaker as a teacher; it was unheard of in my day. We learnt from Swedish teachers, some of them with very dodgy accents. I think the difference lies in the attitude. Swedish children know they are expected to learn languages, so they get on with it.

In any case, my English is better than that of most Swedes- because I spent an awful lot of time teaching myself. And when I came to England as a teenager/young adult I worked very actively on improving my accent and intonation. It is never too late to improve.

But I agree with your suggestions for the OP. There are always going to be more chances to teach French or German to a slightly older child. It's not a case of you've missed the last bus if they don't learn it in the first year.

I had exactly the same ideas before having dc1. Didn't work. Songs are fantastic, the odd story book is useful but less so, exposure to the idea that English (or whatever your native language is) is not the only language in the world, brilliant. But talking to babies/ toddlers in foreign language when it is not a bilingual situation simply did not work for us.

Now dd is 6 and doing French at a school club and getting on with it really well. Modern languages are coming in as part of the curriculum for Key Stage 2 if you are in the UK so all children will get some exposure at age 7-11. I totally agree with cory in that you have not missed the bus if you don't do it while they're tiny.

Oh and one of my schoolmates in my A-level French class was bilingual with a French mother. She had exactly the same issues as we did with getting grammar correct, confusing constructions in English and French etc. etc. It is not a free pass, necessarily, to learn a language in babyhood (though a huge advantage I'm very jealous of)

Cory, you're right to pick me up on my (up front admission of) no knowledge. What I have read about bilingualism came from reading about children with language problems and speech delay. It can cause problems to have a parent struggling on in a non-mother tongue language, though of course it is not guaranteed. The problems come when a parent uses a non-native language all the time (often because of trying to ensure child has English in a non-English speaking household). Where someone does it part time as an optional extra, I doubt that it would make much difference to the child, but if they were susceptible to language problems anyway, it could possibly confuse them and add to the problem.

Yes, I am not suggesting for a moment that mr Saunder's experience was in any way representative of anything other than himself.

Though I have to say that I know some families where either one or both parents speak mainly poor English to their children and the children are still doing extremely well in literacy; they seem to instinctively have worked out who is a good model to follow. Probably just goes to show that you can't keep a brilliant mind down. But then who can guarantee that we'll all get brilliant children...

Thanks for all your input everyone. I'm under no illusions that I may had bigger fish to fry when LO gets here!! I should point out that whilst DH and I are both English speakers, his Grandma was German, and his aunt lives in Austria so most of his family speak a reasonable amount of German (hence me learning it). I'm thinking more along the lines of a few counting games, songs etc rather than attempting (and failing) to produce a bilingual child!

Nb I think my German grammer is probably better than my English .

Babyignoramous - if you have links with a particular country then that sheds an entirely different light on things. In that case go for it, but do involve native speakers within the family and make use of linguistic support instruments - get the relatives to send you talking books, CDs etc. from Austria/Germany and try to travel there as often as possible. I'd avoid the school French though, stick to the one language where you have a bit of background. Good luck.

Justabout and Cory - whilst I am aware it is possible in some instances for a child to pick up a second language from a non native, non fluent speaker, it is really quite rare. All the non native speakers I know who have done this, such as my uni prof, have at least been extremely fluent in the language and there was a lot of contact with the culture. It's difficult enough for a native speaker to pass on a minority language to their child (I have enough trouble getting DD to speak any English at all and there is no guarantee she will be fluent and accentless) so generally it becomes nigh on impossible to instil any fluency in your child when you're not a native speaker or indeed fluent, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as frequent travel to a country. You do also have to be extremely dedicated as it can become very wearing.

FWIW I am attempting to emulate Saunders with my own daughter. She's only 8 months old so far so who knows if it's working? But she doesn't seem to mind and I now feel it would be odd to speak to her in English instead of French. I also think I am a better dad because I make a more concerted effort to spend time interacting and playing with her than I otherwise might, because I am practically the sole French-speaker in her life at the mo. Suffice it to say that I am very happy with my decision and have no palns to change it.

What leaps out of Saunders's books is how happy the whole family, but especially the children, are with the set-up and how much German is a (positive) part of their identity and their relationship with their dad.

There is also an American woman who, with college French (ie much lower level than Saunders) and starting when her twins were 18 months (ie much later than Saunders) embarked on a similar adventure. The book is called, "bringing up baby bilingual" - her name eludes me. Certainly SHE seemed happy with the results she achieved from this unpromising start.

Happy to chat further on this if anyone wants.

My friends son has La Jolie Ronde lessons for french on a Sat morning. They teach from 3 years old...not sure if you want to wait that long though ... have a look www.lajolieronde.co.uk

That sounds interesting, Man. I have read Saunders as part of my work, but never spoken to anyone who did a Saunders. Do keep us updated!

Will do.

BTW, in the light of the earlier part of this thread ... Saunders's approach IS a fairly strict OPOL one, and I am doing likewise, but that's only because I can't see me succeeding any other way - I wouldn't dream of prescribing that to others. My view is very much that if it produces a happy child who can speak the languages you want him or her to speak, it must be a good method.

I'm hoping to stay neutral on this one ...