How to raise child bilingually when some of DH´s family won´t understand what I´m saying.

[Cies]

I´m ttc first child atm and thinking about how it´ll work bringing him/her up bilingually. I´m English, living in Spain with Spanish DH. We are both keen on doing OPOL in our home and are both convinced of the benefits of it. I speak Spanish fluently, and DH speaks English fairly well. Personally I cannot imagine speaking to my children in a foreign language.

But, I wonder about how it works in the wider world, outside the small family circle.

E.g., we spend a lot of time with DH´s family, and see nephews and nieces interact with grandparents and aunts and uncles.

A typical conversation this weekend involved MIL, her DIL and her DD (MIL´s DGD)

child- "Granny, can I have some gum?"
mum- "no María, you can´t have chewing gum now, you have to wait until after lunch."
grandmother- "yes María, you must wait. I´ll give you some gum after lunch if you are good."

Now, how would this sort of thing work out if the mother is speaking a language that the grandmother doesn´t understand?

In our situation (English speaking, DH German) I either speak to the DCs in English with a short translation or speak to them in German if it was a longer conversation that I want someone else to understand.

you jsut keep explaining when they try it on, and they do try it on!
Unfortunately we haven't been able to really keep up with bi-lingualism with ours, but their grandmother doesn't understand english. They understand her, but can't speak her language.
They do try it on with her, as she likes to spoil them, but we jsut have to explain to her if they've been told something in english and she has missed it. We get by.

I really wish we had kept it up with the boys, but as I understand very little of the language of dp's family it would have been very hard. As you and your partner both understand both languages, I'd really go for it.

Yes, that´s what we feel. It´s so worth keeping at it. But I fear there are going to be many Sundays spent translating!

Hi Cies

I am in the very situation you describe now. We use OPOL at home. DH´s parents don´t speak or understand English so when we are in their company they don´t know what I am saying to DS. At the moment DS has only a few words in English so its not a major problem as he is still babbling a lot.

At the moment DH´s family are more concerned that DS won´t speak or understand Spanish when he goes to school as he spends all day with me, everything in English

Like you say I´m sure in the future there´ll be lots of translation going on

Hi CIes,
I am spanish living in the UK. We have 2 dds (7 and 3) and I speak to them 90% of the time in Catalan (my mothertongue) and like you, I couldn't imagine speaking to them in a "foreign language". My DH's parents don't speak any catalan, but when they are around I speak to my daughters in English, if they need to know what I say to them, sometimes I don't say it in English and sometimes I say it in both languages.
We had the situation that I had in the same house my parents who don't speak any english and my IL who don't speak any catalan or spanish, and then what you do is transleting all the time what you are saying.

You know, I wouldn't really worry about the others. I'm in a similar situation, DP Italian with no (or very little) English, ditto stepson and ILs. I still speak to DD in English in front of them and explain that I'm doing OPOL and that's it's importanat I speak english to her all the time. Since English is a "prestigious" language they're all quite keen that DD does learn it well so are quite happy for me to do this. Goodness knows if it would have been the same if I were Albanian or Romanian....

In the scenario you mention (and it has happened) I just step and and say that I've already said no, that she can have it later if she goes and asks someone else. Also, the ILs (who we see once every 2 yrs so not really a problem) and others know that they're to ask me if it's OK first, plus if they've heard me they do recognise the word no.

I speak English to DD when I pick her up from school or when we're out with her friends too. I only speak Italian to her if I'm addressing her friends as well. Nobody bats an eyelid. In fact, most parents are pleased because they think their little one is going to learn by osmosis

My PILs don't like it when I speak with my children in my language. I think they feel left out in some way, that maybe I am talking about them. You learn to ignore that, because you know yourself that that is not what it is about. They (PILs) are a lot better now, seem to have accepted it.

There are a few times when you need to step in, like with the chewing gum, say no to your children in your language and just quietly tell the others that you have said no to your child having any chewing gum.

Hi Cies

Im also in same postion living in Spain DP is Spanish (speaks V good English) but PILs dont. It seems to worry MIL most who seems to think I have a little conversation once a day with DS in English. As DS is only 5 mths I use Spainsh around them but am trying to ease in the english (songs etc etc) in front of them. Although MIL has also been known to just sing louder in spanish over me

We do to use OPOL at home, but dont know how its going to work as DP and self speak some very wierd spanglish ourselves.

You don't have to spend every waking moment in the day speaking to your dcs in the same language. OPOL is all very well, but it doesn't have to be adhered to rigidly.

Presumably you will have to speak Spanish in his presence when you take him to the doctors, preschool, shops etc? What if you have to take him to A&E? And later on when you help his friends onto the potty during the playdates? Or when you help a sick neighbour out? Or when you get called in to see the headteacher.... Your child will need to know that you can interact with other people in the society around you- otherwise he won't learn much in the way of social skills from you.

So don't worry- speak English to him at home and outside the home when no third party is involved in the conversation (on the bus, walking down the road), but don't think it's a major disaster if you change languages as a matter of courtesy when other people are involved. After all, adapting your language to other people's needs is what you are going to ask of him, so you might as well model that behaviour.

I am Swedish living in the UK and my dc's have known from the start that I am perfectly capable of speaking English(I have a part time job for one thing and am involved in the local community in different ways).

When we visit my family in Sweden everybody (including English dh) speaks Swedish, when we visit grandma in Kent everybody including me speaks English. When their friends come round, I try to remember to speak English to them ; if not, I am brought up short by their blank faces. I also speak English when helping out with homework (SATS revision in another language is just going to be a bit much).

But I spend a lot of time on their Swedish, talking to them, reading stories etc. They are both fluent bilinguals and totally unembarrassed about it. Dd has penfriends in Sweden and has recently joined an internet forum. She reads Swedish books and is completely confident chatting to Swedish relatives on the phone. The only thing that does get her embarrassed is hearing her Dad speak Swedish - because his accent is not very good.

I have heard of parents who get so hooked up on adhering to the OPOL system that they don't like even inviting other children in if they speak the wrong language. My experience (coming up for 12 years now) has been the opposite: any stimulation of either language helps with both languages. And general confidence and a good social life are as important as being bilingual- and in effect support bilingualism. Personally, if it came to the crunch I would cherish Grandma above bilingualism, but I have found cherishing Grandma poses no threat to bilingualism, rather the opposite.

We live in France and my PILs don't speak any English. Our eldest is 11 now so they are used to me rattling on in English at them, and they have realised that their grandchildren haven't been harmed or held back by it (on the contrary!).

My simple rule is that if I am addressing my child/ren directly with something no one else needs to hear, I speak English. If I need or want anyone else to understand (or if it would be impolite to do otherwise), I speak French.

Reassure them that once they are at school, Spanish will become their dominant language however much English they speak as toddlers.

with cory here, was brought up myself like that, saw/heard both parents speak both languages although second language only when required, third paties around

Same as Castille.

If I am playing tea party with DD at grandparents house, we play in English. If MIL comes to join in, we switch to French. We all speak French around the dinner table.

The children have no problems switching.

DH speaks good English so we speak English at home to slow down the French becoming dominant. We switch to French when we have visitors.

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Pitchounette's solution wouldn't work for me because I want to interact with my inlaws and the children at the same time, e.g. playing games together. Same for dh with my family. If you're all playing guessing games together it's easier to stick to one language. And I sometimes take dc's friends out for the day, or have them for sleepovers, in which case I need to speak to both them and dc's.

But I think the message that is coming out of these posts is that there are all sorts of possible solutions and that you can tweak it around your needs.

I think the critical thing is that you do respect the OPOL idea until the children are happy and confident using the appropriate language with each parent. At this point (ime) each parent is so associated with a language that the child will not fall back on the dominant language. If you then want to speak your partner´s language directly to your child it is no problem. My DD finds is vaguely amusing when I do this and often tells me to change back to English.

Why should anyone feel ashamed of their native tongue with their own child? I certainly do not and don´t want to give the idea that there is something wrong with it. Communication with both sets of Grandparents has never been a problem so far though Cory´s point of playing games etc,. has brought home that we will have to change to a "family" language, on the rare occassions that are not other bilinguals around.

I didn't respect the OPOL idea all the time when they were little either, nopainnogain.

I sang lullabyes in both languages when they were newborn. I took them to English First baby group, toddler group, invited their friends round for tea. Since I was the parent at home with them and there were no speakers of my language in the neighbourhood, it was a choice between sometimes speaking English and not speaking to other people at all. If I hadn't spoken English in their presence when they were little, they wouldn't have had any friends and (worse!) I wouldn't have had any friends.

For us, the occasions when there were no bilinguals around were not rare occasions, but any time we wanted company outside the immediate family. So basically at some stage every day.

And when we went to Sweden when they were babies/toddlers dh couldn't spend the entire holiday refusing to communicate with the children of the family who were too young to be bilingual.

But dd knew intellectually which language was which before she was 3, mentioning them by name. We talked about the two languages. It's never been a problem. I reckon the reason it worked for us is that I spoke and read and sang to them so much in either language- so they probably got the same amount of exposure that they'd have got from a stricter but slightly more taciturn OPOL parent. Also that they had to speak Swedish when we were there in the summer. Also that we always discussed these things a lot.

OPOL is just one method that works; it's not the only one. And you can do part-OPOL, or tweaked-OPOL or OPOL-except-when-auntie-Jane-comes-to-tea. The one thing that is essential IMO is that they get plenty of exposure to both languages, and that they are sometimes forced to speak both.

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Cory, what you say reassures me a lot. Your dc seem to have mastered their two languages and life in general in a positive way.

If push came to shove here I would also choose granny over English of course. I agree that communication in any way or form is useful and helpful for dc. The everyday scenarios you have described (shopping, talking to a neighbour etc) had had me wondering, but I can see that conducting these in Spanish will not harm my dc´s language skills.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.

You really don't have anything to worry about.

I live in France, I speak English to our daughter and my DP's family do not all speak English well. But they still appreciate that it is vital for our DD to be bilingual.

On OPOL - my daughter's new French class teacher grabbed me at school drop off the other morning - she just wanted to check that we were doing rigorous OPOL at home. My daughter's school (50 years of French-English bilingual experience behind it) is adamant that OPOL is the best way to attain mother-tongue standard in both languages.

Hi Cory, Hi Cies, this thread has really set me thinking. I´ve never had any problems with OPOL personally, certainly not with other family members. I do mix though with bilingual families on a daily basis and one thing that never fails to completely dismay me is the number of children who speak to their mother in the FATHER´s language, and this presumably because it is the language of the country and often the language the parents communicate in. I´ve also seen Mothers who would like to separate from the Father but can not move back to their home country easily because the children do not speak the language. Another situation to avoid.

For this reason I felt very strongly about OPOL, not wanting to be in this situation myself. Cies, living in Spain there is no doubt your child will speak fluent Spanish and given time and schooling will probably have Spanish as her dominant language. If you do not establish English as the language of communication with your child in the early years she may very well not speak English with you. This happened to my DH - DD only started to actively speak his language when she started school in his language. Apparantly this is common. Children learn languages on a needs basis and until school started, English was the common language. After a year of school she actively speaks the appropriate language with both of us. I´ve no doubt that if she had gone to an English school then she would have screened out his language from her vocabulary altogether.

I don´t see any need whatsoever to address your own child in a foreign language in the early years. Later, yes, no problem, when needs must. Right in the beginning, no. (Have you ever tried to change your language of communication with a friend? Most people find this very difficult.

Cies, you said you were worried about translating. This is so not a problem, interpreting just doesn´t seem to be any issue at all, I´ve no idea how much we do it, but certainly DD has a role here, often explaining to family who has said what to whom. There have been times when I have to remind DD to speak one language or another to a certain person but this doesn´t happen so often.

So, this has become a bit of an essay : ( In a nutshell, Cory´s situation has worked well for her but I have seen many family situations where this has not worked at all and where one language has been dropped, normally the Mother´s. Current research shows OPOL is the way forward in most situations. Good luck with whatever you do!

Agree v strongly with nopain....
OPOL is important at language acquisition stage in order that the child acquires their relevant lgs correctly.
No matter how fluent a non-native speaker is, their lg2 is never going to be the same as their lg1 so the child will pick up pronunciation errors etc.
I have several friends here (italy) who don't do OPOL and almost all of them, as their children reach schoolage are concerned that one language (and yes, it's usually the mother's English) is being lost. Not only is that a shame, it's a travesty. And totally unnecessary.
I was a SAHM and so up until she started nursery, my daughter's English was better than her Italian, as she was with me all day. Now it's catching up.
I don't give a monkeys whether the doctor understands what I'm saying to my daughter when we're in her surgery. The doc speaks to her (and me ) in Italian, we speak to each other in English. Why wouldn't we?
Ditto friends and family. If necessary either I or my daughter explain what we've been saying.

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What you all say is very interesting. I think I need to read up a bit more! I think you´ve all swayed me again (curse my ability to see both sides of the argument!)

I´m sure in my case I won´t have any huge problems. Family IL have already all expressed a huge interest in any future GC being bi-lingual, so I don´t think I´ll be faced with the type of comments some poor mumsnetters get (" you´re only doing this for you" etc). And, it´s only MIL that speaks NO English, the others have between some and a good level.

This book is a translation into Spanish of a book that came out in French a couple of years ago about bringing children up bilingually. I highly recommend it - you could give it to your DH and in-laws to read as well.